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Rich Marzullo
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 13 January 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 2318
Posted: 20 July 2015 at 6:42am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Ugh, I just threw up a little. 
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Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3310
Posted: 22 July 2015 at 9:15am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

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John Byrne

Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 117274
Posted: 22 July 2015 at 9:31am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

The above modified "quote" pretty much sums up everything the went wrong, doesn't it? Lucas' late-in-the-game decision that he "always intended" his story to be "The Tragedy of Darth Vader" is completely undercut by the absurd depths to which he pushes "Annikin" during his "seduction" by the "Dark Seid -- sorry, Side" of the Force.

The atrocities committed by Skywalker Sr and Vader are far beyond any redemption, most especially not the "Oops, my bad!" of JEDI.

I left the theater after each of multiple viewings of the original STAR WARS with a spring in my step and hope in my heart. I look at the ponderous, lumbering, disjointed mess that followed -- and has been embraced by so, so many -- and I sort of give up on any hope for Humanity's future!

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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
Posted: 22 July 2015 at 1:49pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

When Padme mutters, "There's still good in him" or something like that
before dying, after she's learned that her husband has killed defenseless
children* and tried to strange her when he knows she's pregnant with
their children, it defies any actual emotional logic. I would have preferred
Padme have lived and gone into hiding with Leia on Alderaan while
sacrificing Luke to be raised elsewhere (but safe). At least then it would
be clear that instead of someone suffered from battered wife syndrome,
she has the sense to basically wash her hands of her deranged spouse.

*Lucas having Anakin kill children was a bizarre choice. Even if he's
convinced that the Jedi are themselves evil and corrupt (a dumb
decision, but whatever) rather than the waking mummy who was behind
all the destruction and death of the past 20 years, how are harmless kids
responsible? Or even a viable target? I mean, Michael Corleone kills a lot
of people in THE GODFATHER but I think if he'd murdered children *with
his own hands*, the ability to connect with even a villain protagonist
would have vanished.
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James Reese
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 18 July 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 434
Posted: 24 July 2015 at 7:00am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

The "taken as fact" rules doesn't work for STAR WARS. As we know all too well, we cannot trust anything we are told by any character, or even the "narrator."

***

The "narrator" in the opening crawl of Episode I contradicts that film as well. It states that the Republic sent 2 Jedi Knights to deal with the trade dispute. However, Obi Wan Kenobi doesn't earn the title of Jedi Knight until the end of the movie.
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James Reese
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 18 July 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 434
Posted: 24 July 2015 at 7:29am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Michael Corleone kills a lot of people in THE GODFATHER but I think if he'd murdered children *with his own hands*, the ability to connect with even a villain protagonist would have vanished.

***

When Michael kills Fredo in PART II, he really becomes a villain, in my opinion. Vito is a sympathetic character because he takes cares of his family, gets justice for people, etc. Michael has to win at all cost. In the original, when he takes out the heads of the 5 Families and gets revenge for Sonny and his father in the process, this resonates in a positive way for the audience. In the second movie he kills his own brother, which goes against everything his father was. What makes it even worse is that you then see that Fredo was the only person that stood up for him when he enlisted in the Marines.   

Michael is just as bad as Anakin is, as far as I'm concerned. Both are consumed by a lust for power no matter who has to die in the process. If Michael felt like he had to kill children to keep power/not appear weak he would have (like Don Ciccio). It doesn't matter if he ordered it or actually carried it out, the blood would still be on his hands.

Edited by James Reese on 24 July 2015 at 7:30am
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John Byrne

Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 117274
Posted: 24 July 2015 at 8:39am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Michael Corleone kills a lot of people in THE GODFATHER but I think if he'd murdered children *with his own hands*, the ability to connect with even a villain protagonist would have vanished.

***

When Michael kills Fredo in PART II, he really becomes a villain, in my opinion. Vito is a sympathetic character because he takes cares of his family, gets justice for people, etc. Michael has to win at all cost. In the original, when he takes out the heads of the 5 Families and gets revenge for Sonny and his father in the process, this resonates in a positive way for the audience. In the second movie he kills his own brother, which goes against everything his father was. What makes it even worse is that you then see that Fredo was the only person that stood up for him when he enlisted in the Marines.   

Michael is just as bad as Anakin is, as far as I'm concerned. Both are consumed by a lust for power no matter who has to die in the process. If Michael felt like he had to kill children to keep power/not appear weak he would have (like Don Ciccio). It doesn't matter if he ordered it or actually carried it out, the blood would still be on his hands.

••

Remember, too, that the GODFATHER movies are about decline, not redemption.

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James Reese
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 18 July 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 434
Posted: 24 July 2015 at 8:44am | IP Logged | 8 post reply



Remember, too, that the GODFATHER movies are about decline, not redemption.

***

Absolutely.
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John Byrne

Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 117274
Posted: 17 March 2019 at 7:42am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Revisiting this thread after so many years, I’m struck by a thought: so many of the hardcore, fanatical Warheads have drunk so much of Lucas’ kool-aid because they were just kids when they started, and years later, as putative adults, they must cling to the mythology or admit George fooled them.

After decades of declaring “This is how it is!” they don’t want to look like suckers if they say “No it isn’t.”

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David Schmidt
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 11 July 2017
Location: France
Posts: 194
Posted: 22 March 2019 at 9:58am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

I grew up watching the original trilogy and I'm still fond of it... even if I agree with about how the story derailed from its original track.

And there's no way Lucas intended Vader to be Luke's father.

I would be really thrilled to read a "Star Wars: Elsewhen".
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John Byrne

Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 117274
Posted: 22 March 2019 at 10:24am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

It’s in my head! Friend and Forum member Paul Gibney even suggested a way Vader COULD be Luke’s father without Ben being a manipulative liar!
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David Schmidt
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 11 July 2017
Location: France
Posts: 194
Posted: 22 March 2019 at 10:28am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

It's your Vader's face on page 1 that made me think about it.

That would be so exciting... Far more exciting than the five or six last movies!

And I'm curious about that Vader idea...
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