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Conrad Teves
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Posted: 15 April 2018 at 7:23pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Apparently, there are legal IP restrictions even within a Star Trek property.

Someone on a Facebook 3d modeling group is building the Discovery version of Pike's Enterprise, and did an overlay of the two.  The proportions are quite similar, though the details diverge a lot. Doubtless the source of the "25% different" mentioned in the article.
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Conrad Teves
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Posted: 18 April 2018 at 5:12am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Or maybe not.
Update from CBS:

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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 18 April 2018 at 6:36am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Alex Kurtzman: Obviously [Discovery] looks more modern than The Original Series, because we are in a modern world now and if we made the show look that way people would not feel that it was worth the money. That being said, every prop and costume design is filtered through what existed at the time. And do we create the new version of it or do we augment the original design in very subtle ways or do we just leave it alone? And when I say every prop and design choice I mean every prop and design choice. So, I think you will see a lot of tips of the hat to devices to The Original Series and the timeline. But, obviously we wanted to create a more modern experience and that necessitated certain adjustments.

Ugh.   I don't know what's worse, the look of the 'redesigns' or the lame explanations for why they want to keep the ENTERPRISE aesthetic.   As I've always said, there was a middle ground to be had here that would have been compelling to both new and old fans, and they blew it.   
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 18 April 2018 at 2:48pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

A modern experience could easily have been created by adhering to the original design and aesthetic and simply showing it in greater detail than had ever been done before, ala' DS9's high-definition Enterprise from "Trials and Tribble-ations."

This simply smacks of "how can I pee on this and make it mine?"

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Joie Simmons
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Posted: 19 April 2018 at 11:35am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Is Discovery without a captain at the end of the first season? I still
haven't gotten around to watching it, but I read it takes place after
The Cage. Is Pike going to transfer to the Discovery?
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 19 April 2018 at 5:43pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Is Discovery without a captain at the end of the first season? I still haven't gotten around to watching it, but I read it takes place after The Cage. Is Pike going to transfer to the Discovery?

Er... I guess it's not a spoiler now, but yes Discovery no longer has a captain.  (technically, it never did if you think about it)   

Pike taking the Discovery?  An interesting prospect, but wouldn't that create an as-yet-unnamed Enterprise captain between Pike and Kirk?   Given the other 'additions' to the canon that DISC and ENT have made, I guess this would be fairly unoffensive.  They could slot Robert April in there and I'd be ok with it.

TBH, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Saru takes the chair during Season 2.




Edited by Rob Ocelot on 19 April 2018 at 5:44pm
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 20 April 2018 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

There is some unknown person who is at least slated to be the Discovery's new captain.  They were on their way to Vulcan to pick him up at the end of the finale when they received a distress signal from the Enterprise.  There weren't even any clues as to who that new captain is, and of course, any number of things can happen where whoever it is doesn't end up actually becoming the captain.  
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 04 May 2018 at 12:00am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Just finished the first season.  A few thoughts:

- Overall, I enjoyed it.  Not my Trek, but I think that ship has sailed.
- Don't get the hate (Miller!) for Sonequa Martin-Green.  I thought she was fantastic.
- Didn't like the portrayal of Sarek.  Far too emotional.  Not in his overall arc, but in little asides like the last scene in the season finale where he says he never tires of seeing his home world.  Just doesn't feel Vulcan to me.  Sarek would never say that in a million years.
- Hate, hate, HATE the idea of a spore drive out there predating TOS.  So they have this technology out there that is now waiting for a nonhuman host to drive it...a tech that they apparently haven't found a nonhuman host for in any other iteration of the series nor 13 films.  It essentially was the driver for this season, but then put on the back burner once it's usefulness was at an end?  Lame.  
- Loved the cast of characters.  I thought it was one of the best, most complete first season casts since TOS.  We got to know a number of characters, even the lesser lights, through action rather than a story arc devoted to them which was totally fine by me. 
- Really hated the continued use of subtitles for the Klingons.  It was cute in the beginning, but became incredibly tiresome as the series wore on.  I don't think it lessens the integrity of the series to have Klingons speak Klingon to each other but we (the audience) can hear it in English even where there are no humans around.  It's just such a ponderous language that I felt time was wasted by enunciation rather than just getting the words out.
- For as much as I enjoyed the set up to the finale, I thought the final solution was inelegant.  I kept thinking that all someone had to do was kill L'Rell before she hit the button to detonate the bomb and the Klingons could have won the war.  Also, L'Rell said she had something to unite the Klingons, but never told them what it was.  We hear the chamber laughing when she says she can lead them, but they fall silent when she raises a handheld monitor.  Why?  How could they possibly know what threat lay beneath their planet?  It was just too easy a finish for something 15 episodes in the making.
- The effects were amazing.  Easily the best of any Trek series and they certainly rival the films.  
- Hated the opening theme and the credits.  Everything about them including the fanwank nod to the original TOS theme. Blech.

Overall, an intriguing but flawed new entry in the Trek Universe.  Outside of the first season of TOS, you can say that about every other first season of any iteration.  I'm willing to hang in there for a second go, curious where the focus is with Pike, but still have to color myself cautious as to whether or not I can fully commit.

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Steve De Young
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Posted: 08 May 2018 at 2:41pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

They've released some promotional set photos for Season 2, which includes a pretty good look at the Enterprise uniforms and Pike's back, possibly a bit of Spock as well.  They seem to be actively seguing from the first season DSC uniforms to the TOS uniforms.

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Jabari Lamar
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Posted: 19 June 2018 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Alex Kurtzman To Shepherd ‘Star Trek’ Franchise Expansion Under New 5-Year Overall Deal With CBS TV Studios

‘Star Trek: Discovery’ Has Spinoff Launch Pads In Michelle Yeoh & Jason Issacs

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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 19 June 2018 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Three show runners in two years.

Definitely a sign of a healthy, happy production with a nice shiny coat!

... and how about we actually get more than a season under our belts before we start to plan the spinoffs?   The cart is nothing without the horse to pull it.

Just gimme a god damn straight up STAR TREK show that doesn't have a feminist, chauvinist, gay, cis, political, or religious agenda.   This might seem like a radical story idea for the 2010s but lets actually trek to some stars and explore space instead of talking endlessly about our feelings and making sure the diversity checkboxes are all filled in.
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Jim Muir
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Posted: 20 June 2018 at 1:48am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

<<Just gimme a god damn straight up STAR TREK show that
doesn't have a feminist, chauvinist, gay, cis, political,
or religious agenda...and making sure the diversity
checkboxes are all filled in.>>

Good luck on that with ANY show in 2018, Rob!
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 20 June 2018 at 3:02am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

That description wouldn't apply to the original Star Trek from the 1960's.
Trek has always taken political stands. Remember the franchise's enduring love for terrorism and terrorists throughout TNG, DS9, and Voyager? Remember Data telling us that terrorism works and is, in fact, going to be the answer to Ireland's problems?

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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 20 June 2018 at 7:02am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Jim, Brian...

I agree that it's hard for a television show  especially ones that deal with war on occasion to stay away from politics or hot topics entirely.  

TOS tended to show both sides of the argument even when it was leaning towards one particular viewpoint.   Amazing considering it aired smack in the middle of both the Vietnam war and the Cold war, right in the dramatic run up in the race to put a man on the moon.

That's a really interesting takeaway on TNG and terrorism.   Authors (including our forum's namesake) often get accused of promoting one ideal or another when all they are trying to do is show both sides of the equation.  TNG also depicted a state employed torturer having a family life outside of their 'day job' but I wouldn't mistake that as glamorizing the practice.   Picard's later admission that the torture was working doesn't indicate that TNG's writers are pro-torture -- in the same vein the terrorist discussion between Picard and Data concludes that sadly yes, terrorism (like torture) does work and is effective but for all the wrong reasons.   How can a writer show the context under which the arbitrary labels of 'terrorist' or 'good guy' are applied?   Would you have felt better if they dressed all of the Maquis in black hats so you didn't have to think about what might have pushed a person to conclude violence as the better option versus diplomacy?


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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 20 June 2018 at 10:17am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Really hated the continued use of subtitles for the Klingons.  It was cute in the beginning, but became incredibly tiresome as the series wore on.  I don't think it lessens the integrity of the series to have Klingons speak Klingon to each other but we (the audience) can hear it in English...

This was handled well in THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY. There were couple of times where a scene would start in Klingon (with subtitles), but at a very intentional point, switch to English. It made it obvious that the Klingons were still speaking their language, but that we were hearing English. 



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Marten van Wier
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Posted: 21 June 2018 at 12:47pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

This is one of the most disappointing news stories regarding the Star Trek franchise I have read ever since the Star Trek movie reboot was announced.

I actually had hoped that Kurtzman would be eventually been removed from the Star Trek franchise had Discovery not been the success Paramount had hoped it to be.

To instead hear that he will be in charge of the franchise for five more years and that there are spin off series in production makes me worried what things he gets to put in these in an effort to "modernize" Star Trek to make it appealing to new target groups.

Most likely a lot more poor quality story telling and pandering to the Alt Left which is already leaving a toxic mark on media.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 21 June 2018 at 3:38pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Most likely a lot more poor quality story telling and pandering to the Alt Left which is already leaving a toxic mark on media.
++++++++++++++++

Yep.


I've had more than my fill of it all. STAR WARS is like the Titanic{/I], at this point. Marvel Comics is a mess. And the last traces of anything remotely resembling proper STAR TREK faded away when ENTERPRISE was cancelled.


What worries me more is the political/cultural war brewing over all this stuff. It happens all the time, now: Longtime fans of the material call out the s****y character and storytelling of these new iterations, and are labeled as "sexists", "racists", and "manbabies". Ridiculous.

Sorry, people, but hiding behind forced diversity and far-Left ideology does not excuse awful storytelling and a complete disregard and disrespect for what has come before. That's not how it works.

I've also seen any number of people whom I've had respect for--people who are friends and/or film critics--blindly cling to these sinking ships, and use terms like "manbabies". True, there are extremists on both sides, but that doesn't invalidate the arguments of those who criticize stories and characters.

For me, stories and characters are what's important. Race and gender shouldn't even be a talking point. But, the SJWs who have taken over modern pop entertainment are making this stuff entirely about race and gender. Which is in total opposition to what STAR TREK is, of course.

I watched the DISCOVERY pilot. It sucked. "STAR TREK" made by people with no understanding or love for STAR TREK and its history. I didn't need to see more to know that the overall series would suck.


Also, I'd be very happy to never hear the names "Abrams", "Orci", or "Kurtzman" ever again.
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Victor Perez
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Posted: 21 June 2018 at 3:57pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

<<Just gimme a god damn straight up STAR TREK show that doesn't have a feminist, chauvinist, gay, cis, political, or religious agenda.>>
<<let’s actually...trek...instead of making sure the diversity checkboxes are all filled in>>

Sounds like you are virtue signaling and I am curious what would satisfy you—I guess it’s gotta be a “god damn straight up STAR TREK” show, but not one with a diverse cast and not one that explores what it means to be human (at least if said exploration touches on identity in any way, which is no small part of being human).  

When TOS was new, would you have accused it of checking those same boxes?  When TOS was new and addressed race and discrimination, would you have similarly dismissed those episodes as agenda-driven and not “straight up STAR TREK?” Are you upset that Discovery has a more diverse cast of characters because it does not track with Star Trek canon (in terms of human diversity as depicted on screen)? Or are you upset that it depicts our inevitably more diverse future and think it shouldn’t?

Seems to me we would like more good stories, more drama on the screen and less drama in the writers’ room, and less of these dodgy “deliberate design choices” from the producers (as well as less of the dodgy BS (if not outright lies) about those same ‘design choices’ as well. Hope we can all at last agree on that.

p.s. “Feminist” is not the opposite of “chauvinist,” and saying you don’t want your Star Trek to have a “gay” or “cis” agenda—I think your intent is to make another false equivalence here and appear above all that... but... replace “gay” with “black” and “cis” with “white” and you can see how silly that might sound... “I don’t want a story with a black agenda or a white one.” I don’t think anyone in Star Trek is foisting any “agenda” on you, but they sure as heck aren’t foisting a “cis” or “white” one on you anytime soon.  As for wanting no religion and no politics—again, you are totally free to exclude all art and literature and music and film and television that has an agenda of any kind besides pure entertainment, but that’s definately crossing off a lot of stuff from the last 2000 years...unless you don’t mean you don’t want ANY agenda, just not agendas you disagree with...



Edited by Victor Perez on 21 June 2018 at 4:43pm
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Victor Perez
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Posted: 21 June 2018 at 4:21pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

<<TOS tended to show both sides of the argument even when it was leaning towards one particular viewpoint.>>

When did TOS show “both sides” of the racism and fascism it addressed AT ALL, let alone while only just “leaning towards” a stand on those issues.  It is entirely appropriate for art to make a statement.  You don’t have to agree with it—but you still have the option to appreciate it, consume it or ignore it.  Maybe I am unique and lucky that In some strange and goofy way that I can still enjoy reading and appreciate and learn something like Atlas Shrugged while still be disgusted by its political agenda.

There is a difference between telling “both sides of a story” (or, for example, depicting the things that are remembered fondly by those who lived under oppression in Soviet times... or the roads and schools that were built by colonialists... or the tragedies that have occurred in America’s history) versus showing both sides of something that we can all agree on is repugnant or evil as if there were some journalistic imperative or artistic legitimacy points to be had for doing so.  

Donald Trump said there were good people on both sides in Charlottesville... that is not the kind of “both sides” that Star Trek (or our forum’s namesake) have ever aspired to tell... unless it was to clearly illustrate how one side is...wrong.

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Victor Perez
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Posted: 21 June 2018 at 4:38pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Would just add to my comments above that none of the above means that the writers and producers of Star Trek shouldn’t consider their audience. They shouldn’t dumb things down, they shouldn’t pander—they should challenge—but they also should consider how far (and how) they “boldly go“ before people all people are ready. If they are going to try to push boundaries they better pay up to have great writers who can handle the task of challenging our views without alienating us and ALL THE WHILE entertaining the you know-what-out of us. 

I am shocked and saddened by some new film trailer or series every couple of months—what were they thinking. The new “muppet” movie is a perfect example. 

On the other hand, I also quit midway through the first season of Breaking Bad because I thought it was a depraved low for Hollywood. A year or two later it was getting so much acclaim, I had to go back and the rest was history.  The best we can do is vote with our eyes and wallets, knowing that:

1) we are being desensitized in general to violence and sex and 

2) knowing that making what we see more representative of who we are and who we are going to be is long overdue.. but going to offend and alienate if not addressed thoughtfully, creatively and sensitively. Personally I think being offensive goes hand in hand with art, but when touching longstanding franchises with aging curmudgeon fans (like me), maybe not so much.  Save it for a new property or properly branded offshoot.
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Victor Perez
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Posted: 21 June 2018 at 5:49pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

<<Most likely a lot more poor quality story telling and pandering to the Alt Left which is already leaving a toxic mark on media.>>
<<STAR WARS is like the Titanic{/I], at this point. Marvel Comics is a mess.>>
—————-
Oof, the Alt Left must be a HUGE market or these Trek and Disney people must be really stupid at business to risk pandering to them!


<<Longtime fans of the material call out the s****y character and storytelling of these new iterations>>
——————
What does that have to do with pandering to the Alt Left or anyone? Since when were s****y characters or storytelling something to aim for?


<<...and are labeled as "sexists", "racists", and "manbabies". Ridiculous.>>
——————-
I hated the Discovery pilot. Does that make me sexist or racist or a manbaby? If someone called me that I would laugh.


<<Sorry, people, but hiding behind forced diversity and far-Left ideology>>
——————-
Just worth pausing here and asking...how is having a gay character “far-Left” ideology? Do you think someone who is gay is automatically “far Left?”  Is being gay a “far Left” ideology?  I have a few openly gay friends...am I “far Left” because of that? If the armed forces of the US are 40% minority but modern action movies depicting the armed forces of the US have only a couple of black characters on average and 10% black and Hispanic extras in the background and suddlenly a movie comes along and it depicts something more representative of real life, is that “forced diversity?”


<<does not excuse awful storytelling and a complete disregard and disrespect for what has come before.>>
———————
Dude, NOTHING excuses awful storytelling and a (disrespectful) disregard for what has come before.  It is fine to disregard what has come before but not disrespect it. I doubt our board’s namesake would agree that you somehow own his creations and would give a rat’s you-know-what if you objected to his playing with them.

<<I've also seen any number of people whom I've had respect for--people who are friends and/or film critics--blindly cling to these sinking ships, and use terms like "manbabies". >>
———————-
Let’s agree right now that anyone who says or types the word “manbabies” except for you and me on this bulletin board deserves zero respect unless they are making the same point that I am right now: Call8mg someone a ‘manbaby” is like wearing a pair of beats headphones back in the day...gives everyone a quick shortcut into knowing who you are,,,,

<<True, there are extremists on both sides, >>
————————
Look, I know what you mean and I also know that you are not equating an idiot Yale student shouting down a guest speaker or a professor’s husband with a NAZI—because while both are reprehensible there is a difference—-but when you just throw it out there like that, that there are “extremists on both sides,” you should know that you sound just like Trump talking about Charlottesville. 

<<but that doesn't invalidate the arguments of those who criticize stories and characters.>>
————————-
You are sort of pretending two things here... first that all you are doing is criticizing the quality of the writing, and second that anyone who is critical is branded sexist or racist, etc.  Well, it just isn’t so black and white, is it?


<<For me, stories and characters are what's important>>-
——————————
This SHOULD be true for everyone!


<<Race and gender shouldn't even be a talking point.>>
——————————-
Should race,and gender have been a talking point in Selma? During Partition? During the Anschluss? Do you think Roots shouldn’t have been made? Do you think the movie Black Panther was racist?  Your location is the United States so I feel it is ok to tell you...your opinion here is in the minority. I am not judging you for your opinion, I respect it and you are entitled to it. But I am judging you if you don’t realize that you are way out of the mainstream.


<<But, the SJWs who have taken over modern pop entertainment are making this stuff entirely about race and gender.>>
—————————
Dude is it bad characterization and bad storytelling or is it stories ABOUT race and gender? Please tell me some episodes of Dicovery that were about race and about gender and what what they depicted was bad or detracted from the story.


<<Which is in total opposition to what STAR TREK is, of course.>>
———————————
In what way?


<<<I watched the DISCOVERY pilot. It sucked.>>
———————-
Yup...but it got waaaaaaay cooler after that.


<<"STAR TREK" made by people with no understanding or love for STAR TREK and its history.>>
—————————-
That is demonstrably not true but kind of moot.


<I didn't need to see more to know that the overall series would suck. >
__________________
Yeah you did. You woulda loved what happened next.

<<Also, I'd be very happy to never hear the names "Abrams", "Orci", or "Kurtzman" ever again.>>
——————————
Couldn’t agree more! (But for different reasons)




Edited by Victor Perez on 22 June 2018 at 3:01am
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 21 June 2018 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Rob, your equivalence between the Trek spin-offs' portrayal of torture and terrorism doesn't hold up, but I'll play along. We were offered multiple characters throughout the Trek franchise who were painted as freedom fighters and terrorists, although we were not given much in the way of their actual attacks and victims. They were just... mad at Starfleet. You know, the way we're sometimes mad at middle management. And so commit acts of terrorism against them...

While Picard's torturer was shown as a loving family man as well as a brutal, sadistic soldier employing unspeakable tactics against an innocent man. Both sides of the equation were given some screen time there, to the improvement of the episode.

Not so with Kira, Chakotay, Ro, Paris, Torres, or any of the others who are identified as terrorists. We're invited to laugh along with their jokes, enjoy the wonder of their spirit-walks, smile along with their romantic foibles, and kick back to love a bit of 30's-style sci-fi alongside them, but seeing them at work? As terrorists? Instilling terror in a populace by attacking civilian targets? Insisting upon political change and using the lives of innocents as the token of exchange to get what they're after..?Well, golly gosh gee... Must've overlooked that part. 

I do recall there being an episode here and there about Kira being conflicted over something or other that she did way back when, but strangely, she's pretty doggone heroic the rest of the time, isn't she, Rob? Berman-era Trek was decidedly pro-terrorism, regardless of what high-minded, no-action Picard or Ro's avuncular vice-principal Riker thought of the practice. Hey, given seven years on his own on some planet surface somewhere, Riker himself would join a terrorist cell. And we know Data can supply multiple examples where the practice was effective. Not sadly or unfortunately effective. Effective.

The portrayal of this topic on these programs was anything but even-handed. Terrorism was just a political necessity, albeit a hasty or sometimes ill-considered one. Certainly, no one participating in terrorist acts should ever be called to account for them. Good heavens, no. Why, they're just like us! Look, one of them is having trouble asking someone out on a date! Shucks, she's so cute when she fumbles everything up like that... What a lovable terrorist.

Do I require black hats as you insultingly suggest? No. But an actual even handed look at the issue? That I do require.

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Steve De Young
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Posted: 21 June 2018 at 7:23pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

See, I still remember when the episode aired where Dax kissed a woman on DS9.  And it was hugely hyped.  And there were a few right wingers saying "Why the gay?"  And there were a few left wingers saying, "Yay!  The gay!"  But nothing like now.

Everything has become so politicized in our culture now that if the same episode aired, there'd be loud screams of, "Yeah!  Sticking it to Trump!" from half the internet, and "What is this SJW agenda bullcrap ruining my Trek!?!?" from the other half.

I'm just kind of sick of the whole thing.  If somebody could set off an EMP and destroy social media, I think we'd all live happier and more productive lives.


Edited by Steve De Young on 21 June 2018 at 7:24pm
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Victor Perez
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Posted: 21 June 2018 at 7:32pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

Amen to that. (The EMP). But let’s not keep perpetuating the false equivalence. We want the EMP because we are tired of people yelling on both sides.  Not because there are “two sides” to the interracial aspect of Kirk kissing Uhura.

Edited by Victor Perez on 21 June 2018 at 7:33pm
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 21 June 2018 at 7:44pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

And amen to that as well, Victor. I've enjoyed your posts on this thread immensely.

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