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David Allen Perrin
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Posted: 05 March 2018 at 10:00am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Wow.  Imagine if Black Panther's CGI was BETTER than what we got on screen!

It might be on its way to a billion and a half by now instead of just a billion....
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 05 March 2018 at 11:07am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

 Michael Penn wrote:
Clearly, Killmonger doesn't prevail in the movie, and yet his viewpoint rather does, albeit (and this isn't in the least trivial) with a handing reach out to help rather than a fist reaching out to hurt. But American racism is not exactly the same as global racism.

I think you are looking at it too narrowly. The word repeatedly used by the Wakandans was “colonizer”, not “racist”. The lasting effects of the American slave trade was Killmonger’s point of reference, being raised in the US, but multiple countries were involved and are still involved in the exploitation of Africa, from the current debate over whether the CFA Franc is a form of French monetary imperialism to Britain’s mining interests to China’s present investments in Africa which seem to benefit them more than it does Africa. 
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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 05 March 2018 at 11:34am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

"I'm seeing it again this weekend and I'm taking my 73 year old mother who didn't want to see Black Panther at first because as she put it "Shit, I grew up with most of them!" LOL!"

Hah!

I'd be very interested to hear her opinion of the film.

Edited by Brian Rhodes on 05 March 2018 at 11:35am
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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 05 March 2018 at 11:49am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I agree with many of the praises that have been heaped upon this movie, but some I disagree with.

Best Marvel Studios movie, so far? No. I don't think so. I suppose it depends on your criteria. No doubt this is a very good film, though.

One note I've encountered several times is that Michael B. Jordan outshines Chadwick Boseman. Again, I disagree. Boseman plays T'Challa with a calm, regal reserve. Jordan's Killmonger ranges between petulant and belligerent. There's ostensibly more to the character than that, there seemed like there should be more to the performance. I've heard "best Marvel movie villain" bandied about. Again, no.

But again, a very good movie, worth seeing, and apparently its appeal has been fairly universal.
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David Allen Perrin
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Posted: 05 March 2018 at 11:50am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

@ Brian - OMG!  I am too!

Long...long ago she took me to see Superman: The Movie back on its premier night.  She loved the first act of the movie (Brando, Krypton, the Phantom Zone, etc...).  But after things moved to earth she felt it was corny.

She STILL hasn't forgiven me for taking her to see The Jerk.
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 05 March 2018 at 5:48pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

About Michael B. Jordan outshining Chawick Boseman: I agree that is not entirely true, or even fair. The villains in any film, superhero or otherwise, often overshadow the hero because being a villain allows the actor to cut loose more. Most actors have said over the years that playing a villain is a release of sorts.

Just as in the real world, it's harder to be the guy who has to keep it all together. Stories about gangsters are more exciting to the general public than stories about the cops chasing them. The "bad boy" or "bad girl" gets more attention, as the rule goes.  Playing the hero is typically the harder role to play, especially if the hero is truly heroic and nonsensical.

I don't want to see the Black Panther played for laughs or against his character, so that means he is going to be more straitlaced as a character. Meanwhile, Killmonger, like the Joker, and other villains is by nature more flamboyant, and therefore appear more charismatic, and receive more credit for their performance. But I personally feel Boseman was a perfect Black Panther/T'Challa.
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Doug Centers
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Posted: 05 March 2018 at 6:12pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Honestly for me the three women leads outshined T'Challa and Killmonger.

They stole whatever scene they were in IMHO.
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Sam Houston
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Posted: 05 March 2018 at 6:44pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Honestly for me the three women leads outshined T'Challa and Killmonger.

They stole whatever scene they were in IMHO.

* * *

I feel the same way.
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 05 March 2018 at 7:54pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I think the female leads are amazing, and am not bothered by their
shine in the film. I also like a lot of what Michael B. Jordan did in the
movie. When Eric Killmonger tells the woman in the museum that she
hasn’t been paying attention to what she put in her body... That felt
perfect.
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 05 March 2018 at 7:56pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Oh, and David (Allen Perrin)... Thank you.
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Jabari Lamar
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Posted: 05 March 2018 at 9:16pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

 Brian Rhodes wrote:
I've heard "best Marvel movie villain" bandied about. Again, no.

So who do you think is the best Marvel movie villain?  


Edited by Jabari Lamar on 05 March 2018 at 9:17pm
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Robert Shepherd
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Posted: 06 March 2018 at 1:11am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I think Killmonger was an interesting villain. I found myself rooting for him until it was clear his evil soul was beyond saving. 

In a juxtaposed way, Killmonger was the hero of the story if you think about it. His dad was killed when he was a child. He was abandoned by his people. He spent his whole life training to avenge is father's death, then, he fought his climatic battle and won - briefly. Even at the end, he sacrificed himself to stay true to his ideals. That's a heroes path story right there. Orphan - Wanderer - Warrior - Martyr. That's why people found him interesting.




Edited by Robert Shepherd on 06 March 2018 at 1:15am
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 06 March 2018 at 3:57am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

I think you are looking at it too narrowly. The word repeatedly used by the Wakandans was “colonizer”, not “racist”.

***

It's too narrow to say it focuses on colonizing because the movie's vision is, in my opinion, not focused at all but quite blurred.

The colonizers in question are racist, first and foremost. Of course they want to exploit others for money, but clearly the movie isn't about France colonizing England, or Germany colonizing Portugal, etc. It's about "White" people dominating "Dark" people. That domination is not exclusively or even primarily about colonizing.

The movie talks about "2 billion of us" oppressed people, and it can't mean only Africa, which has considerably less population, and, more to the point, the movie explicitly talks about globally oppressed people, not just Africans.

The movie begins and ends with a focus on the racist United States, which did not colonize Africa. Of course, America "benefited" (so to sickeningly speak) from European colonialism of Africa. But the experience of the "villain" (right motives, bad actions) in the movie isn't of colonialism -- it is of the racism of the entrenched domestic power structure of his home country. He then extends that to the world and strives to use Wakandan technology to overthrow those racist power structures -- and, in turn, take over and oppress the oppressors.

So, for me, the movie's message is muddled because it doesn't end with the hero (no quotes!) clearly and directly challenging the very idea of racial constructs that were created to drive dominance of one set of people over another. It's not enough to say we have more in common than not. Under the "skin," we ARE each other.
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David Allen Perrin
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Posted: 06 March 2018 at 5:37am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

The MCU’s best villains have mostly come from the TV shows that the movie side ignores.

Kingpin from Daredevil

Purple Man from Jessica Jones

Cottonmouth from Luke Cage

Aida from AOS

Hive from AOS

Ward from AOS

Loki falls in somewhere...but Killmonger has eclipsed him.  I’d say the TV shows have given us the most impactful baddies.....but Thanos I think will trump (ugh...I hate that word) them all.


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Jabari Lamar
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Posted: 06 March 2018 at 9:09am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

 Robert Shepherd wrote:
In a juxtaposed way, Killmonger was the hero of the story if you think about it. His dad was killed when he was a child. He was abandoned by his people. He spent his whole life training to avenge is father's death, then, he fought his climatic battle and won - briefly. Even at the end, he sacrificed himself to stay true to his ideals. That's a heroes path story right there. Orphan - Wanderer - Warrior - Martyr. That's why people found him interesting.


Yes, and that's why, in my opinion, he is the best Marvel movie villain, so far. The only one close to that was Loki. And I also love Magneto, both McKellon and Fassbender's versions, but I'm not counting them here, since they're not technically "Marvel movies." 

Other than Loki, Marvel has been relatively weak in the villain department. Hell, that's why so many people were complaining about Black Panther before it came out that it looked like Killmonger was just "another doppleganger." They screwed up both The Red Skull and The Mandarin, who could have been really epic movie villains. 

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Conrad Teves
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Posted: 06 March 2018 at 9:22am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Michael>>But the experience of the "villain" (right motives, bad actions) in the movie isn't of colonialism -- it is of the racism of the entrenched domestic power structure of his home country.<<

This is like saying the mutant hatred in X-Men isn't a metaphor for "-isms" in the real world, because there aren't any mutants here.

I actually winced when Killmonger noted how comfortably the Wakandans had been living, because I immediately saw that line was aimed squarely at the audience. I.e., large fractions of the audience live well enough to go see movies while vast chunks of the planet suffer.

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Jabari Lamar
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Posted: 06 March 2018 at 9:41am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

 Michael Penn wrote:
The movie talks about "2 billion of us" oppressed people, and it can't mean only Africa, which has considerably less population, and, more to the point, the movie explicitly talks about globally oppressed people, not just Africans.

I thought Killmonger was primarily talking about Africans, and how they're oppressed, all around the world. Even if he was including other POC, it's clear where his main focus was. 

 Michael Penn wrote:
So, for me, the movie's message is muddled because it doesn't end with the hero (no quotes!) clearly and directly challenging the very idea of racial constructs that were created to drive dominance of one set of people over another. It's not enough to say we have more in common than not. Under the "skin," we ARE each other.

I'm personally glad that it didn't try to force-feed us some sappy feel good We Are The World kumbaya message at the end. I thought the endings, both in Oakland and the mid-credits U.N. scene, were optimistic enough, but the world still is what it is. 
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Conrad Teves
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Posted: 06 March 2018 at 9:52am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Jabari>>I'm personally glad that it didn't try to force-feed us some sappy feel good We Are The World kumbaya message at the end. I thought the endings, both in Oakland and the mid-credits U.N. scene, were optimistic enough, but the world still is what it is. <<

As I noted in my review up-thread, the movie earned its high-mindedness. It's really easy to be high-minded when the villain is muahaha EVIL. But what if he has a point? What if his solution might only make things worse?

That first credits scene starts with a decision and an effort to make things better for the whole world, which I found really powerful.
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Jabari Lamar
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Posted: 06 March 2018 at 10:01am | IP Logged | 19 post reply

 Conrad Teves wrote:
It's really easy to be high-minded when the villain is muahaha EVIL. But what if he has a point?

Yeah, and I think that's what's scaring some people about Killmonger, and why they wish the movie more explicitly refuted his point. 

 Conrad Teves wrote:
That first credits scene starts with a decision and an effort to make things better for the whole world, which I found really powerful.

Oh, that scene was awesome. Those young Black kids' reaction to seeing a "spaceship" in their hood, the streets of Oakland, and that one boy going up to T'Challa asking is that yours?!?  That right there summed up everything about the importance of a character like this (and about how Representation Matters). 






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David Allen Perrin
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Posted: 06 March 2018 at 11:14am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

In the last scene of the movie when my little man asked T'Challa "Who are you?'

....I got a lump in my throat.  

POSITIVE representation is EVERYTHING!


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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 06 March 2018 at 11:46am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

"So who do you think is the best Marvel movie villain?"

Marvel Studios? Movies? Loki. The characters have similar motivations (at least, the Loki of THOR and THE AVENGERS)-- they feel they've been denied their rightful throne due to duplicitous and unfair circumstances and court conflict as both a means to usurp and way to punish the world(s) that had denied them.

I just feel Hiddleston is a much better actor. The character may very well be more relatable (none of us grew up in Asgard, after all), but Jordan's Killmonger in no way eclipses Hiddleston's Loki.

Outside of the MCU, Fassbender's Magneto has been a bright spot.

Cottonmouth was quite formidable. But Alfre Woodard's Mariah was the really scary one of the family.


And I agree the three female leads in BLACK PANTHER were incredible. 


Edited by Brian Rhodes on 06 March 2018 at 12:07pm
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Jabari Lamar
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Posted: 06 March 2018 at 12:23pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

The question is specifically about Marvel movies, so the TV shows don't count  (and if were are counting them, I haven't seen any of the TV shows so I can't judge those characters anyway).

And I think when most people say Marvel movies, they're referring specifically to the Marvel Cinematic Universe, so as I said I don't count Magneto, on a technicality (same as I wouldn't count any of the villains in the first 5 Spider-Man movies, but Vulture in Homecoming would count, and he was damn good). But if I we do count him, I might put Magneto over him. But I definitely felt Killmonger was more nuanced than Loki, and Jordan just nailed it. But even if you disagree with that, you're still placing him in the Top 2, or Top 3, Marvel movie villains, so that's good too!
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Jabari Lamar
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Posted: 06 March 2018 at 12:26pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Oh yeah, if THANOS doesn't eclipse all of the others, then Infinity War will be a creative failure. Will all this build up, from that first little mid-credits scene in Avenger 1 til well, he damn well better be incredible!

And then, hopefully, with the Disney/Fox deal, after that we'll get to see baddies like Dr. Doom, Galactus, and Kang.


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Robert Bradley
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Posted: 06 March 2018 at 12:50pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

So who do you think is the best Marvel movie villain? 

I guess I rate them mainly by how closely they resemble the comics character (mostly as a character, but appearance also comes into it) and how successfully the actor pulled the character off.

Worked for me -
Red Skull (I thought he was the most accurate portrayal)
Hela (she certainly looked the part, and was wonderfully over-the-top)
Killmonger (nicely fleshed-out motivation and personality)
Loki (mostly outstanding)
Alexander Pierce (I don't know much about the comics' version though)
Honorable Mention - The Destroyer

Close enough -
Vulture (great, but not much like the comics' Vulture)
Ego
Obadiah Stane/Iron Monger
Malekith (I actually Kurse more in his limited screen time)
Ronin
Kaecilius
Honorable Mention - The Executioner

Not quite there -
Baron Zemo (he was the lone villain whose plan succeed though)
Darren Cross/Yellowjacket (a little to one-dimensional)
Honorable Mention - Justin Hammer

Pretty weak -
Ultron (the personality just seemed all wrong to me)
Aldrich Killian
Emil Blonsky/Abomination (could be higher, I just found him forgettable)
Whiplash
Honorable Mention - the Mandarin

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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 06 March 2018 at 7:34pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

What did you think of Arnim Zola?
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