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Topic: ALIEN: COVENANT ~ SPOILERS start Pg 4 Locked Post Reply | Post New Topic
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James Woodcock
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Joined: 21 September 2007
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Posted: 17 May 2017 at 10:28pm | IP Logged | 1  

Do people care if there are spoilers in this thread? If not, there are some specifics of plot related to David that I want to get into. Because what PROMETHEUS and this film have done is make the Alien a bit part in its own film series. They aren't the main threat, they are a vehicle for the main threat.

Alien had evolved in the original films, they were then retconned into a hive structure with a queen and it worked. Not any longer, they are a science experiment. They aren't even a science experiment gone wrong. They are a science experiment gone exactly how it should have gone. The true enemy now is David, the alien is his means of creating death. It is not, as Ash said 'a perfectly evolved creature', it is a perfectly created creature. Created with a purpose by a homicidal android.

The one thing I will give this film is that it does follow through with Naomi Raplace's character's decision being one of the most dumb ass ideas in the history of dumb ass ideas.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 18 May 2017 at 12:20am | IP Logged | 2  

On a fundamental level, the cardinal sin of these prequel films is that they take away the sheer alienness of the original film, by tying the origins of humanity itself to the Engineers, and of the Aliens to humanity. It's now a much smaller and less viscerally-terrifying universe. Fear of the unknown is the engine which made ALIEN work.

And, really, the whole point of ALIEN was that the derelict ship and its deadly cargo were of totally unknown origin and nature. Truly alien
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Bill Collins
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Posted: 18 May 2017 at 8:42am | IP Logged | 3  

This is the same as revealing Wolverine`s origin,we were
better off before! All we needed to know,was that the
Alien creatures were perfectly evolved,that is more
scary than the `big reveal`
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John Byrne

Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 18 May 2017 at 9:00am | IP Logged | 4  

There is an unavoidable problem connected with too many trips to the well. It's a combination of the limited amount of "water" to be drawn, and the shift in the people doing the drawing. And that shift is both physical, as in new people, and mental, as in old people with different attituded.

It happens in comics, and it happens in movies. The old "less time with more money" saw. The ALIEN franchise capsized with the third movie, partially righted itself with the third, got very much back in trim with ALIEN vs PREDATOR -- and then blew a big hole in the hull and sank.

PROMETHEUS even broke what should be the "First Law" of prequels: don't remake the original while shouting "We Were Here First!"

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John Byrne

Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 18 May 2017 at 9:01am | IP Logged | 5  

And some day Ridley Scott is going to have to explain to me how a meter thick door can decapitate someone!!
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 18 May 2017 at 9:30am | IP Logged | 6  

With the movie opening tonight on many screens, there will be SPOILERS from this point on.  

You have been warned!
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 18 May 2017 at 5:31pm | IP Logged | 7  

I flicked through a French magazine today that had an infographic of the alien evolution based on different films.

It's current thinking is mostly based on this current film with a little bit of speculation.

So you have the crap that went on in Prometheus which pretty much dead ends until David comes along. He then invents the eggs that lead to the original alien and then creates a second strain that leads to a queen that can lay more eggs.

Annoys me to no end that this is the current state within those movies.
I'm going with AvP as that presented a perfectly logical way things should have gone.

That alien is now all about David and his flaming experiements is something I'm not going to get over for some time. It will be my new go to rant
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 18 May 2017 at 7:03pm | IP Logged | 8  

And, unless time-travel is involved, the next film (assuming this one doesn't tank) is gonna have a hard time explaining how the derelict ship--with the fossilized remains of the Space Jockey--ended up on LV-426.
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 18 May 2017 at 8:19pm | IP Logged | 9  

There have been so many on-screen detours from the original Alien movie that I'm not going to hold it against Ridley Scott for adding his own off-kilter bits. The franchise has become a bit of a monster mash of Aliens, space-gods and crazy robots. I'm interested to see how this car crash unfolds, in Covenant and the next movies. 

Edited by Joe Zhang on 18 May 2017 at 8:25pm
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 19 May 2017 at 1:22am | IP Logged | 10  

Say what you will about ALIENS - AvP.  At least none of them tried to explain the origins of the Alien.  None.  Oh, there have been bits and pieces of ephemera like the Aliens being the testing ground for Predators in AvP, but nothing like trying to take the spit out of a mystery that never needed to be solved like the Space Jockey.  PROMETHEUS began the long slog to demystifying the Alien, thus robbing it of any eerie, otherworldly menace.  Personally, I couldn't give two shits where it came from, how it came to be or why it does what it does. 

It simply...is.

Any attempt to explain it (particularly the lame attempt that PROMETHEUS gave us), slowly robs the creature of any subterranean mystery it had in the first two films (and I say, arguably, the first four as they at least didn't try to explain why the Alien did what it did.  It just...did). 

This isn't a fun experiment, even in a train wreck sort of way.  It's just a sad mining of material that is better left unearthed.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 19 May 2017 at 3:08am | IP Logged | 11  

It's interesting to me that popular fiction has taken a turn towards coming up with the same answer to whatever question the creators or producers feel is worth asking. It's become all about The Guy.

Why are Aliens the way they are? Well, not long ago, there was This Guy, David, and David was The Guy who made them that way. 

Why did the Empire let a defective Death Star roll off the assembly line? Well, there was This Guy, Galen, see? And Galen made it that way.

What the hell was up with the Nu52? How did all that nutzoid stuff happen? Well, see, Dr. Manhatten is The Guy who made the Nu52...

Somehow, fiction, like the voting public in the last election, just really, really needs The Guy right now to simply show up and make everything happen somehow.

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James Woodcock
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Posted: 19 May 2017 at 2:38pm | IP Logged | 12  

Matt Reed - do not, I repeat, DO NOT, go and see this film. you will go insane
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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 19 May 2017 at 2:47pm | IP Logged | 13  

"At least none of them tried to explain the origins of the Alien........It simply...is."

I look at it this way - the ALIEN franchise, or pretty much any other movie does not spend time explaining the "origins" of earthlings - why does an alien species need one?
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 19 May 2017 at 7:20pm | IP Logged | 14  

Matt Reed - do not, I repeat, DO NOT, go and see this film. you will go insane.
++++++++

It ignores AVP and makes those films impossible to have occurred, right?
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 19 May 2017 at 7:42pm | IP Logged | 15  

At least the shark from JAWS still doesn't have an origin... right?
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Dave Kopperman
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Posted: 19 May 2017 at 9:08pm | IP Logged | 16  

No-one ever put it better than Patton Oswalt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-Zmuoze65U
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James Woodcock
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Joined: 21 September 2007
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Posted: 19 May 2017 at 11:23pm | IP Logged | 17  

Greg - yes,AvP cannot occur according to this film.

Vinny - Prometheus sis attempt to explain the origins of humans

i'm really. It sure how they get from this film to Alien where there are a bunch of eggs on yet another crashed engineer ship with a fossilised jockey. Unless they just go with, David found one after looking. Which to be fair, is probably what they will do.
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 20 May 2017 at 1:04am | IP Logged | 18  

 James Woodcock wrote:
Matt Reed - do not, I repeat, DO NOT, go and see this film. you will go insane

My wife is a huge fan of the ALIENS franchise.  Huge.  But she's never seen PROMETHEUS, which I have slagged endlessly.  But love overtakes reason and thus I bought PROMETHEUS on iTunes at a bargain: $4.99.  I haven't seen it since I saw it first run (and hated it) but I know we'll watch it again soon so she can get caught up on this half of the horrible universe in order for her to see COVENANT.  I'll hate myself, but I know it's coming.  

Pray for me. 
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Bill Collins
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Posted: 20 May 2017 at 5:29am | IP Logged | 19  

Matt,i feel your pain,i sat through Dirty Dancing for my
wife!
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Tshombe K. Hamilton
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Joined: 01 July 2008
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Posted: 20 May 2017 at 6:21am | IP Logged | 20  

I was looking forward to the answers Shaw was looking for: Why did the Engineers create us and why did they want to destroy their work.

All that was wiped out in one scene where David unleashes  the plague on the inhabitants.

I waited two years for some answers and got nothing


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Shaun Barry
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Joined: 08 December 2008
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Posted: 20 May 2017 at 11:05am | IP Logged | 21  


Should we start placing bets as to whether or not one of next ALIEN prequel-thingies goes out of its way to feature the birth of Ellen Ripley, and perhaps tie-in her parents to the Weyland Corp., for some nefarious reason?





Edited by Shaun Barry on 20 May 2017 at 11:05am
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Thom Price
Byrne Robotics Member

L’Homme Diabolique

Joined: 29 April 2004
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Posts: 7595
Posted: 20 May 2017 at 12:59pm | IP Logged | 22  

It probably helped that I had rock-bottom expectations, but I thought it was okay-ish.  I didn't fall asleep or want to burn the theater down, so it was an adequate way to spend 2 hours and $8. 

I agree that the Alien would be better left unexplained; on the other hand, the origin throughout the film series is so convoluted that I barely understand it and will, therefore, mostly forget it. 

And that is my primary complaint; the film follows the modern film-making approach of being overly long, overly complicated and overly convoluted.  Are there no film-makers left who understand understatement or economy of storytelling?  The first two movies in this franchise are lean and brutally efficient.  COVENANT, like so many contemporary movies, is overstuffed.

I'll never watch it again and it will eventually join every other ALIEN film after the second in my memory as a vaguely remembered blur.
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David Miller
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Posted: 20 May 2017 at 8:27pm | IP Logged | 23  

It took forever for the alien to show up, and then for about ten minutes this was the best ALIEN since ALIEN. And then it turned back into PROMETHEUS.

On a scene for scene basis it sits comfortably among the best in the series. I thought it contained some of the best-crafted suspense of Scott's career. The "mythos" is pretty much roundly abused so I'm lucky I don't care about that sort of thing.

But yeah, anyone who gives a shit about continuity is gonna lose their damn mind.

At this point the xenomorph isn't so much an alien species appearing in a film series as it is a sci-fi trope like  ray guns or post-holocaust hellscapes.

And if every James Franco role was like this one I'd be a fan.
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James Woodcock
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Joined: 21 September 2007
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Posted: 21 May 2017 at 3:20pm | IP Logged | 24  

This is not Alien. There is no Alien any more. It's either Android or Genetic Creature. But it is not Alien any more.

I am, I have to admit, confused by people that say this film just retreads the same ground as the first film.

No it doesn't. It obliterates that ground and travels new ground. It's just that this new ground paves over the fertile ground of the original. It takes Alien into genetic manipulation, Frankenstein territory (which, granted, I guess Alien Ressurection already did but there it was after the fact rather the origins of the creature)
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Fabrice Renault
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Posted: 24 May 2017 at 8:29am | IP Logged | 25  

I watched the movie yesterday. All in all I enjoyed it but this is more of an "alien universe" movie than a real "alien" movie to me. Like Star Wars and "Star Wars extended universe" stuff.
Frankly, the last 15 minutes of "alien action on a ship" were boring. It could have been a big rat or anything else and the result would have been the same. I did not feel any tension (except with the "medical room" scene, well done) There were some good moments, some good scenes, some good ideas. The engineers city was impressive, as well as David's workshop.

Two main things bothering me are :
- Did David killed Elizabeth Shaw and used her body, or was she killed in the crash ? Or did he experiment on her body before killing her ?
- How did he crash the ship ? (he obviously knew how to maneuver the ship as we can see in the flashback)

All in all, a bit of an improvement over Prometheus and, if the box office returns are good enough, another opportunity for Ridley Scott to fill in the remaining blanks, which should include time travel, Alien Queens, Predators and a few more things. How many films does he needs ?
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