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Luke Styer
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Posted: 29 June 2017 at 11:41am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

 John Byrne wrote:

The HANDBOOK was especially infuriating in this respect. Infected from Day One with an RPG mentality, it also suffered greatly from Mark Gruenwald's need to fill every gap, answer every question -- even the one's only he was asking!

And when answers were not already available, he made them up, WITHOUT consulting with the editorial offices to which the various characters belonged.

The TREK ENCYCLOPEDIA felt very much like that. Roddenberry made wise decisions to leave certain aspects vague or undefined. Now came the fanboys to fix that!

I share, to a limited extent, that desire to figure out answers to random questions in my favorite media properties.  Some level of that desire may be inherent in media fandom.  But if all those gaps were filled, there'd be nothing left to fannishly speculate on, and wouldn't that sort of ruin the fun?
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John Byrne

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Posted: 29 June 2017 at 5:37pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I share, to a limited extent, that desire to figure out answers to random questions in my favorite media properties. Some level of that desire may be inherent in media fandom. But if all those gaps were filled, there'd be nothing left to fannishly speculate on, and wouldn't that sort of ruin the fun?

What ruins the fun for me, is when the fanboys start imposing their own ideas of what's what, instead of following what was stated on the show. For a series that was on the air for three years -- especially one that declined badly in writing quality during that time -- TOS was remarkably free from contradiction. Until the "next generation" got hold of it, and started shuffling things to fit how they thought it SHOULD be, rather than how it had been stated as being.

It's something I work hard at avoiding in NEW VISIONS. Everything I do there is based on what was seen on TOS -- even if it's Third Season stuff I don't actually like!!

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John Byrne

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Posted: 29 June 2017 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I caught a few minutes of some later episodes over the last couple of nights, and they have seemed more like the VOYAGER I was remembering. Time to dip back in, perhaps?
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 30 June 2017 at 3:53am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Mr. Byrne - I'd wager you'll enjoy it more than DS9 or Enterprise.

Have you ever watched the animated series? Any thoughts on that? Thanks!
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John Byrne

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Posted: 30 June 2017 at 6:05am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Mr. Byrne - I'd wager you'll enjoy it more than DS9 or Enterprise.

Now THAT'S a low bar! But to dispel apparent confusion, I have seen VOYAGER, quite a few episodes, in fact. And I enjoyed what I saw, so was disappointed when I picked up the first season and did not find what I remembered. This is why I am thinking of moving deeper into the series to take a second look.

+++

Have you ever watched the animated series? Any thoughts on that? Thanks!

I watched TAS in first run. It was, after all, the only STAR TREK available. I thought the stories were mostly okay, but the animation was bad, and the music intolerable.

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Luke Styer
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Posted: 30 June 2017 at 11:45am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

 John Byrne wrote:
I caught a few minutes of some later episodes over the last couple of nights, and they have seemed more like the VOYAGER I was remembering. Time to dip back in, perhaps?

Because Voyager is largely episodic, I'm not sure there is much to be gained from watching it in order.  I'm not a huge fan of the series overall for various reasons that have been mentioned by you and others in this very thread, but there were particular episodes that I really enjoyed.  It might be better viewed on a catch-as-catch-can basis, though I guess with the current state of technology, that basically means watching in order.
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 11 July 2017 at 9:30pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I'm probably in the minority of Star Trek fans in that I actually liked Voyager after it found its legs, especially the character of the Doctor. But also Seven of Nine. Might be a bit biased on the Seven of Nine character though as Jeri Ryan, then known as Lynn Zimmerman, is from my hometown and graduated a year before me.

Voyager was heaps better than Enterprise. That's probably damning it with faint praise. I was actually enjoying JB's posts on viewing the show and hope he starts it back up again after, in my opinion at least, the show got a bit better. It definitely has more than its fair share of bad episodes, but it still felt like Star Trek, which is something the reboot lacks.

Edited by Shane Matlock on 11 July 2017 at 9:31pm
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John Byrne

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Posted: 12 July 2017 at 7:07am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Because Voyager is largely episodic, I'm not sure there is much to be gained from watching it in order.

Other than the writers and actors figuring out what they're doing?

It evidently took a while for VOYAGER to find its footing. As I noted in another thread, the fourth season episodes I have watched, while not TOS level, a greatly superior to what I was able to tolerate of the first season.

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John Byrne

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Posted: 12 July 2017 at 2:11pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Last night I watched "Random Thoughts", in which the crew encounters a telepathic civilization. At one point Tuvok has a brief telepathic conversation with one of the natives, who asks him, telepathically, why he expresses himself vocally so much. He responds in kind, saying he has just "gotten used to it."

The implication here is that Vulcans spend most of their time using telepathy rather than speech. Is this really something that's been slipped into the mythology while I wasn't looking?

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Luke Styer
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Posted: 12 July 2017 at 3:10pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

 John Byrne wrote:
Other than the writers and actors figuring out what they're doing?

I guess that can be an interesting process to watch, but if there's not much continuity to demand it, maybe it's better to just skip ahead until they seem to have had a handle of things.

[quote]It evidently took a while for VOYAGER to find its footing. As I noted in another thread, the fourth season episodes I have watched, while not TOS level, a greatly superior to what I was able to tolerate of the first season.[/quote
It was never my favorite of the sequel series (that was originally TNG, and later DS9), but it definitely improved over the first few years.
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 12 July 2017 at 5:01pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

It evidently took a while for VOYAGER to find its footing. As I noted in another thread, the fourth season episodes I have watched, while not TOS level, a greatly superior to what I was able to tolerate of the first season.

******

The first season was by far the worst of Voyager. It seems like with Voyager and Next Generation it took a few seasons for the writers to find their footing and the actors to grow into their roles. Good thing The Original Series wasn't like that or we'd never had all those great episodes in the first and second season. TOS is kind of the opposite of the sequel series in that the first and second seasons were the best. It was great right out of the gate.
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John Byrne

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Posted: 13 July 2017 at 6:43am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

One of the surprises has come with how much I am enjoying Seven 0f Nine -- and, no, not for those reasons. The character is much more layered than my brief glimpses had led me to believe.

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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 13 July 2017 at 8:05am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Back in high school she didn't have her, er, original Borg implants that fill out that body suit so well. But I know what you mean, JB, I really enjoyed the character as well. I think most of my love of Voyager is down to her and the Doctor. Although I did like Tuvok and Janeaway as well. 

Edited by Shane Matlock on 13 July 2017 at 8:06am
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Marten van Wier
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Posted: 13 July 2017 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Season 4 and parts of 5 are my favorite seasons of Voyager (though 3 does have a few good episodes as well)
But I do hate what the writers eventually did with Species 8472.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 13 July 2017 at 6:09pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Aside from the rather obvious attempt at T & A appeal by the producers, Seven really did give the show a shot in the arm. Jeri Ryan's performance had some depth, energy, and edge to it, which helped counteract the blandness of the other characters.

I'd say that she and Robert Picardo were the MVPs of the show.

Edited by Greg Kirkman on 13 July 2017 at 6:09pm
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John Byrne

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Posted: 13 July 2017 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

A little scientific research in the name of science finds that the general consensus is that Ms. Ryan is as Nature made her, and the additional cantilevering was in the suit.
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 14 July 2017 at 2:34am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

I saw an interview where she said she asked to have that catsuit (not sure if she meant the first one or the one worn later) and how she would have loved to have burned it. (Not only was it incredibly tight but there was a corset worn underneath that apparently almost made her pass out a few times.) But they wouldn't let her have a suit. She does however own one of her Borg alcoves. 



Edited by Shane Matlock on 14 July 2017 at 2:34am
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Joe Boster
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Posted: 22 July 2017 at 8:15pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Finished voyager a bit ago and I think Picardo was overused in the last couple of seasons. Because I remember thinking "oh no not another Doctor saves the day story."

I did find it interesting that Seven identified herself as Borg not human. "Borg but an individual" If I recall correctly. 

Voygaer hasn't been upgraded/restored/Converted to Blu-Ray qaulity correct? I noticed many times where it felt like I was watching my old CRT Tv not my spiffy 4K. 
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 22 July 2017 at 9:52pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

Same problem as with TNG and DS9--the show was edited on SD video, not film, and the CG effects were rendered for SD. It would take a lot of time and money to redo everything for HD, and, at the moment, CBS/Paramount feels that the sales wouldn't be substantial enough to justify the expense. 

TOS and TNG got the HD treatment because there's a big market for those shows. DS9 and VOYAGER, not so much, unfortunately.
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 23 July 2017 at 12:27pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Finished voyager a bit ago and I think Picardo was overused in the last couple of seasons. Because I remember thinking "oh no not another Doctor saves the day story."

****

Oddly enough, I've seen that charge given to Seven of Nine but not the Doctor. A lot of people think it basically became the Seven of Nine show in the last season or two. I personally didn't mind all the episodes with the Doctor and Seven as they were my favorite characters. And I especially enjoyed their interactions and friendship. Without those two characters I feel like there really wouldn't be much reason to watch Voyager.
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 23 July 2017 at 12:30pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

TOS and TNG got the HD treatment because there's a big market for those shows. DS9 and VOYAGER, not so much, unfortunately.

****

That's a real shame, Greg, as I enjoyed both of those shows quite a bit and would love for them to get the HD treatment. I thought DS9 though had a pretty big following and many fans rank it the best of the next generation Star Trek shows.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 23 July 2017 at 11:19pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

CBS/Paramount have some pretty deep pockets but they likely wont pony up for restoration of the original film elements for DS9 and VOY (if they even still exist).   TOS always existed on film.  TNG was a lucky break that 99% of the original film elements had been a) preserved at all and b) preserved properly.

In a similar vein, WB isn't likely to shell out to restore BABYLON 5 to something that would be palatable on today's TV screens, even though they've grossed something on the order of nearly *a billion* (yes that's a 'b') dollars from sales of the DVD sets over the last 15 years.  It's a shame the corporate thinking is so myopic that no one dares suggest reinvesting some of those profits back into the franchises that made them so much coin -- and perhaps garner some fan/public good will and likely make several billion more dollars.   Nope, too much work.  Easier to crap out the same old unrestored junk in the same old quality with zero effort on DVD for a trickle of money.
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Joe Boster
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Posted: 24 July 2017 at 2:14pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

  It's a shame the corporate thinking is so myopic that no one dares suggest reinvesting some of those profits back into the franchises that made them so much coin -- and perhaps garner some fan/public good will and likely make several billion more dollars.   Nope, too much work.  Easier to crap out the same old unrestored junk in the same old quality with zero effort on DVD for a trickle of money.

++++++++

The first think I thought of was Robotech. Too much effort, they say. Of course the source material (Super Dimension Fortress Macross) just came out with a spiffy restored BD for the 30th aniversery.

ENTERPISE looked really sharp on netflix. Better tech?
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 24 July 2017 at 3:37pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

I had no idea Babylon 5 has made that much money in DVD sales. I liked it quite a bit (especially the 3rd and 4th seasons) but it really suffers being in the old TV format, as do DS9 and Voyager. How much does it cost to upgrade these from SD to HD format, Greg?

If Babylon 5, which has a lot smaller fan base than even the worst received Star Trek series, has made a billion dollars in DVD set sales it seems like it would be worth it to upgrade DS9 and Voyager to a format that almost guarantees DVD/bluray sales from the fans of those shows.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 24 July 2017 at 10:03pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

I have mixed feelings about thse upgrades. As a nitpicky purist, I respect the need to preserve shows and movies as they were originally presented. TNG and he other spin-offs were mastered on SD video, for broadcast in SD. They are a product of their time, and represent the work done by the people of that time.

The TNG Blu-Rays look gorgeous, from what I've seen. But, at the end of the day, they're an early-2000s recreation of the original work from the original elements. Mistakes have been fixed. Details changed. In-jokes--not easily visible in SD--removed for HD. While the remastered episodes are lovely to watch, and preserve the overall content and viewing experience of the show, they still technically don't represent the original work of the original editors, visual effects compositors, etc. 


TOS is a different story. It was edited on film, but presented in SD via the old "film chain" technique, where a 35mm print would be run and rephotographed for live broadcast, with the result appearing on TVs being several generations removed from the source prints. The Blu-Rays (minus the CG effects, of course) represent the actual work of the original editors, etc., and present the episodes in the highest possible quality. The older DVDs, based on 35mm prints, are what the creators would have seen in the Desilu screening rooms, back in the day, but the Blu-Rays, based on the negatives, pretty much represent the actual work as produced, edited, and mastered at the time.


I've occasionally considered buying and revisiting TNG, from time to time, in part to log the experience of rewatching it for discussion in this forum. But, if I went the purist route, and bought the old DVDs, I'd feel like I was missing out on the lovely remastered episodes. If I bought the Blu-Rays, I'd feel like I didn't have the "real" episodes as they were produced and mastered back in the day. What they really should have done for the Blu-Rays was include both versions, as they did for the TOS sets. The old SD masters wouldn't have taken up that much disc space, after all.

Decisions, decisions! Ah, the life of the anal-retentive, obsessive-compulsive nerd...


Edited by Greg Kirkman on 25 July 2017 at 8:32am
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