Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum MOBILE
Byrne Robotics | The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 4 Next >>
Topic: Confederate Momuments Removed in New Orleans Post Reply | Post New Topic
Author
Message
John Byrne

Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 107012
Posted: 26 April 2017 at 7:06am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

One of the things I have learned in my years puttering around this planet is that we owe most of the GOOD STUFF in the modern world the TERRIBLE things that happened LONG AGO.

Sad but true.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 1368
Posted: 26 April 2017 at 7:43am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

JB>>One of the things I have learned in my years puttering around this planet is that we owe most of the GOOD STUFF in the modern world the TERRIBLE things that happened LONG AGO.<<

One of those very uncomfortable truths that hopefully teach us that we owe it to ourselves, and the memory of everyone who paid for what we have, that we need to make the world and ourselves better. For no other reason than so that such things don't happen again.

I think it remains to be seen if Humans showing up on the planet is a good thing at all.  Look at all the bad we've done in such a short amount of time!  Considering the alternative, I kinda feel like we owe it to ourselves to give Growing Up a shot. I'd certainly like to believe we can be better than we have been...
Back to Top profile | search | www | email
 
Fred J Chamberlain
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 30 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 3804
Posted: 26 April 2017 at 7:47am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Nice sentiment, Conrad. I agree with it. Unfortunately, we are living in a
time that people are paying less and less attention to the present world,
much less studying history. That said, we are spiraling away from the
chance of any lessons learned.
Back to Top profile | search | email
 
John Byrne

Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 107012
Posted: 26 April 2017 at 8:06am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I think it remains to be seen if Humans showing up on the planet is a good thing at all.

••

I'd vote NO.

It seems, based on what we have seen (and done), that the worst thing that can happen is if some element of the natural world comes to think of itself as separate from and ABOVE the natural world.

That's us. We build religions that teach us we are separate and special, and not part of what is going on in the rest of the World. That everything out there, from natural resources to animals, are just for our use, in any way we'd care to use them.

This is now in the process of biting us where we sit, and, as someone observed a while back, it is important to remember that just as hurricanes and volcanoes are "natural disasters," so, all too often, are the actions of the human race. When we wipe out a habitat and cause an extinction, that is a natural disaster, because we are part of Nature. (Beavers do this all the time, building their dams, but we don't decry them as "unnatural.")

Years ago I read an article that made an excellent point: we think of ourselves as separate from Nature, but if we consider a bird's nest or a termite mound or that beaver dam to be "natural objects," we must also consider New York City, the Pyramids and Boulder Dam as "natural," too.

We're part of the tapestry, not standing to one side looking at it.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 9633
Posted: 26 April 2017 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 5 post reply


 QUOTE:
We build religions that teach us we are separate and special, and not part of what is going on in the rest of the World. That everything out there, from natural resources to animals, are just for our use, in any way we'd care to use them.

I don't know of a better antidote to that suicidal perspective than science. 

How to make folks take their medicine, though...?!
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne

Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 107012
Posted: 26 April 2017 at 9:12am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Science lacks one very important ingredient: it doesn't allow us to think of ourselves as SPECIAL.

Every step of the way, science has stripped away the miracles and the magic, and shown that our presence here is the result of a long (and, granted, unrepeatable) process, no part of which has anything to do with divine intervention. There was no god to say "Shazam!" and call everything into being from nothing. Even the search for extraterrestrial life is just one more way to show that we are not unique, we are not chosen. We're stardust -- which is pretty special in and of itself, but not as special as having the Creator of the Universe taking a personal interest in each of us.*

Science and reason demand that people give up too much that they cherish, most specifically the insane hubris that tells them they are the centers of their personal universes.

____________________

* Except THOSE people over THERE, of course. THEY are NOT his favorites, and he wants us to either convert them by force or wipe them out.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian Peck
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1673
Posted: 26 April 2017 at 11:45am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

We build religions that teach us we are separate and special, and not part of
what is going on in the rest of the World. That everything out there, from
natural resources to animals, are just for our use, in any way we'd care to use
them.

*********************

That can be applied to most but not all religions. Native Americans have their
religion where they are part of the land and it must be respected and
preserved.
Back to Top profile | search | www | email
 
John Byrne

Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 107012
Posted: 26 April 2017 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

If you look very closely at what I wrote, you may be able to determine that I did not say ALL religions.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3803
Posted: 26 April 2017 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

That can be applied to most but not all religions. Native Americans have their 
religion where they are part of the land and it must be respected and 
preserved.
************************************************************ **************
Do they really have a singular religion? And do they all follow a "land must be preserved" philosophy? This seems to play into the stereotype. 
Back to Top profile | search | email
 
Brennan Voboril
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 15 January 2011
Posts: 1285
Posted: 26 April 2017 at 1:17pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

My wife and I took our children on a family vacation not too long ago and was surprised to see a statue of Albert Pike in Washington DC.  I was also surprised to see statues of Confederate leaders all over the South (I am from the North).  It just seemed wrong.  
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 6851
Posted: 27 April 2017 at 7:41am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Sadly, science also cannot grant us instant immortality upon the moment of our deaths, give us everything we ever wanted in life after we die, and restore all of our lost loved ones to us, including the pets. Religion also gives us Rules and Laws to govern our behavior so we can tell who is Good and who is Bad. It not only tells us we are special as a race to whichever God we select or have selected for us, but tells us we are individually loved, looked after, and that each of our lives have meaning from moment to moment because a gigantic force, bigger than we can comprehend, cares so very much about whether or not we get through traffic in time or hit that baseball. 

Our lives are so important when we have Religion. Why, without it... we'd be so small... we'd have to make our own rules and find our own meaning... And we'd all die. For real. And never come back. We'd be dead forever. That's... not okay. All this struggle and strain with no Final Reward for us and no Final Punishment for that office manager who f***'ed us over? She gets to win? How is that fair?! And we don't get to find out all the answers after we die or get told by Our Father whether we were Good or Bad in the final analysis? We don't get to make him happy with how good we've been or how hard we've tried? And Fluffy's really been dead-dead this whole time???!!!??? Mom and Dad LIED to me???

The Human Race has serious Daddy issues. As well as Pet Issues. And Death issues. Religion makes all of that better... It hits so many of our "Happy Buttons" and asks for so little in return. Stone the harlots. Kill the non-believers. And hey, those kinds of things are fun in their own way, once you get into them... 


Edited by Brian Hague on 27 April 2017 at 7:44am
Back to Top profile | search | email
 
Don Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 23 November 2005
Posts: 2205
Posted: 27 April 2017 at 9:21am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Southerners and gun enthusiasts often cite the Civil War as a shining example of freedom loving citizens defending themselves against the tyranny of a government juggernaut, all the while forgetting that their side LOST that particular struggle.
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne

Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 107012
Posted: 27 April 2017 at 10:44am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Southerners and gun enthusiasts often cite the Civil War as a shining example of freedom loving citizens defending themselves against the tyranny of a government juggernaut, all the while forgetting that their side LOST that particular struggle.

••

Also forgetting it is difficult to identify oneself as "freedom loving" if one is enslaving hundreds of thousands of people.

Even had they "won", the victory would have been over common decency.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 1095
Posted: 28 April 2017 at 3:57am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

I wonder if those people who are Confederate celebrants really understand that they are supporting slavery again. Some of those younger supporters might profit from having explained exactly what happens to slaves, and that those youngsters would be beating their friends, tearing those friends away from their parents for no reason, and robbing them of every single thing they own.

I don't know if a lot of ten or eleven year olds would be so gung ho at that point... I see ignorance taking a big hand in this support.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Christopher Frost
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 24 October 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 56
Posted: 28 April 2017 at 7:37am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

I've never been a Confederate supporter or sympathizer but I think that their movement is less about supporting slavery and more about the desire to break away from a government that they feel doesn't represent their values. It's certainly no excuse for the ugliness often on display alongside their "pride" but I think to disregard their movement as simply a racist/bigoted one ignores the underlying root of what it's really all about. Putting up statues of Confederate folks, flying the flag, etc. is about thumbing their noses at the powers that be.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Fred J Chamberlain
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 30 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 3804
Posted: 28 April 2017 at 7:54am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Christopher, that may be true, but they'd be better served displaying a
new symbol for that ideology and showing some individual thought
process. Those that fall under your description and use the flag to
promote their thoughts, they only display that they haven't put al that
much thought into it.
Back to Top profile | search | email
 
John Byrne

Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 107012
Posted: 28 April 2017 at 8:07am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

…they haven't put al that much thought into it.

••

A-doy!

Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 24494
Posted: 28 April 2017 at 8:43am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

In related news TN just passed legislation to honor Nathan Bedford Forrest and his contributions to the KKK. It was hidden in another bill that was classified as non-controversial and didn't need debating. The Forrest bill has been shot down numerous times, but the sponser finally got it buried deep enough that no one noticed. Even the black members that actually voted to pass it.  
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne

Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 107012
Posted: 28 April 2017 at 9:11am | IP Logged | 19 post reply

In related news TN just passed legislation to honor Nathan Bedford Forrest and his contributions to the KKK. It was hidden in another bill that was classified as non-controversial and didn't need debating. The Forrest bill has been shot down numerous times, but the sponser finally got it buried deep enough that no one noticed. Even the black members that actually voted to pass it.

••

We need a good plague.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Tim Cousar
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1414
Posted: 28 April 2017 at 1:40pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Legislators don't read what they're passing.

Edited by Tim Cousar on 28 April 2017 at 1:44pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 6851
Posted: 28 April 2017 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

Christopher Frost wrote: "Putting up statues of Confederate folks, flying the flag, etc. is about thumbing their noses at the powers that be."

So, kind of a "f*ck you" at anyone who doesn't see things their way. Allow me to extend the same back at them.

Back to Top profile | search | email
 
Don Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 23 November 2005
Posts: 2205
Posted: 28 April 2017 at 1:49pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

thumbing their noses

Yes, from the same folks who see the Black Lives Matter movement as a threat to America on a par with ISIS.
Back to Top profile | search
 
David Allen Perrin
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 15 April 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 2147
Posted: 02 May 2017 at 3:27am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

 "We need a good plague."

He is sitting in the White House.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Jason Larouse
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 10 May 2011
Posts: 446
Posted: 19 May 2017 at 8:16am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

The Robert E Lee one is in the process of coming down right now. This is by far the most prominent one. 



Edited by Jason Larouse on 19 May 2017 at 8:17am
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Cole
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 02 March 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 337
Posted: 19 May 2017 at 11:56pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

When are the liberal drones going to have all the bodies exhumed from Arlington National Cemetery since it was Robert E. Lee's land seized for non payment of taxes?
Back to Top profile | search | email
 

<< Prev Page of 4 Next >>
  Post Reply | Post New Topic |

Forum Jump

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login

You are currently viewing the MOBILE version of the site.
CLICK HERE TO VIEW THE FULL SITE