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Warren Scott
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Joined: 09 July 2016
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Posted: 19 May 2017 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Just wanted to say I like your resolution, Brian.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 19 May 2017 at 7:10pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Lucas got trapped by his own mythology. The appalling ending of "Revenge of the Sith" was forced upon him by his own youthful self, telling stories about how things played out based on the first movie without any real consideration of the other movies he "planned", or how they would play out.
+++++++++

All he had to do was have Kenobi be driven off by arriving Stormtroopers before he could deliver the fatal blow. 

I get what Lucas was going for (he needed to connect ROTS to STAR WARS, and also show that Kenobi had basically written Anakin off as irredeemable, hence Plan "B" with Luke), but it still comes off as rather cruel and forced. 

And, of course, the idea at the time of JEDI was that Kenobi was trying to save Anakin and draw him back to the good side (with the implication being that he was too far gone, and so Ben reconciled himself to the fact that he'd have to be destroyed), but that doesn't come across at all in ROTS. He basically writes Anakin off as soon as Anakin declares his intentions.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 19 May 2017 at 7:17pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

And please don't think I'm trying to crap on your insight, Kirkman (which I find generally brilliant), just saying where I'm coming from on some of this.

You're probably correct in citing the incongruence of fan expectation vs. artist intent as one of the key issues in fan dissatisfaction.

Though I think some fault must be found with a few less-than-great decisions of said artist(s). 

++++++++

No worries, Brian! 

I won't begrudge anyone for their take on the films, and I love discussing this stuff. I try and look at it from different angles. The STAR WARS experience truly is a generational one, and perhaps no one experience is "right" or "wrong". I try not to be too inflexible with this stuff. There are pros and cons to each iterations of the series, although I tend to agree that the original, standalone STAR WARS is by far the best.

I do, however, tend to think that Internet Groupthink has played a fairly substantial role in fans' hatred of the prequels and the gushing over the Disney films. I think that the prequels have merits which tend to be overlooked, and that the Disney films have been worshipped a bit too blindly. I try to aim for a balanced middleground, myself. I've come to acknowledge the flaws of the sequels, but STAR WARS by itself is still a  friggin' perfect movie experience. Even its "flaws" are charming!
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Brian Burnham
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Posted: 21 May 2017 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Ranking.....hmm...I vary things a lot in rankings but I'll give it a go.

STAR WARS.

I was 10 when it came out. Not sure who I cajoled into taking me but probably my Uncle Bill. He liked Sci Fi to. I was hooked instantly. My first figure was Darth Vader and I continue a "limited" Vader collection to this day. I was (and am) a Star Trek fan but this was different. Seemed more exciting to my inexperienced mind (tho ST-TWOK would be on the way soonish to set me straight.) And the score.....my goodness

THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK

13 now. I liked the banter between Leia and Han. I liked the bounty hunters. I liked the AT-ATs and Snow Speeders. I loved Cloud City. I didn't loved Vader as a father. Movies that end on a cliff hanger generally feel like filler but this did not. I felt development.

RETURN OF THE JEDI

16 years old. I didn't like the Stormtroopers being beaten so easily by rocks and sticks. A 2nd Death Star? C'mon. And flying the Falcon into it? Why? Leia as a twin? Yuck. You kissed in 2 previous movies. Leia as a slave...well, I was 16. Boba's "death" so silly. Lots of stuff I didn't like.
Luke as a formidable Jedi was awesome. All in all It was OK but wanted more for last Star Wars movie I would ever see. Oops.

THE PHANTOM MENACE

I took a day off from work to see this. And I was not alone. Packed theater at 10 AM on opening day. Cheers through out the theater when the theme hit and the movie started. I was not fond of Jar Jar but otherwise the movie was not horrible. Jedi & Sith were well represented. Age between Padme and Ani seemed to great considering what was to come but I'm not sure I knew that then.

ATTACK OF THE CLONES

OK age difference now seems fine but I remember the last movie so why? Cast a younger Padme for 1st movie. Otherwise a lot of action and I enjoyed it. Saw this on a IMAX screen for 1st time. Nice ending battle. And I liked Count Dooku. This movie is often counted as the worst one but I rather like parts of it. Jango being killed so easily by Mace seemed foolish.

REVENGE OF THE SITH

People generally like this best of the prequels. I am not among them for 2 main reasons. Anakin's rapid change (tho to be fair Lucas jumps time a lot) from good to evil. And Padme's weakness and dying of a broken heart leaving her 2 children in Kenobi's hands. She was super strong as monarch in TPM but now is weak. Bleeahhh.

ROGUE ONE

Hmmmm. I liked seeing Vader again. And Tarkin as well even is it was a little creepy. Running right into SW was interesting. K2S0 was funny. I think a heist movie could've been better than this but at least it didn't contradict things.

THE FORCE AWAKENS

OK, seeing Han & Chewy again was great. Really great. I liked the new characters. Seeing Luke at the end was joyful. But....rehash of SW with a planet killer. It consumes the sun where it is, so mobile? Kills the system it's in and another system. Little overkill. Luke running and hiding for 20 years?? Ehhh. Solo's naming their kid Ben. Neither had a attachment to him. Luke naming his son Ben in the old EU I could see. Leia hugging Rey and not Chewy after Han's death was inexcusable. She didn't know Rey. She was very close with Chewbacca.

ANIMATED CLONE WARS

I grew to really like the animated series and Ahsoka in general but this was not good. I can watch it incontext with kids but I didn't enjoy it at first.


My daughter (just 10) told me about a month ago she wanted to start watching Star Wars after resisting it her whole life. We watched all the movies to date. ESB is her favorite. I gave her the choice of watching them how I did 4-6, 1-3, 7, 3.5 or in order. She wanted in order. She likes them all and is upset she has to wait til December for the next film. Really? 7 months is to long to wait. Try waiting 16 years...............
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Joe Boster
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Joined: 29 April 2004
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Posted: 21 May 2017 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Brain that Ranks right up there with Drunken Master Jar-Jar. A Truly Epic take. 

So Just Star Wars (1977 35mm Mono editon the movie I saw 100 times) 

or

Star Wars SE -It fits better with the overall story.

EMPIRE
The one I saw the least in the theater the least. Didn't realize at thetime that Jedi lie and Sith tell the truth. I was saying that's impossible along with luke. 

JEDI
Saw in A Drive-in.Loved it but not enough to watch it over and over.

ROUGE ONE
The best fan fic ever. Someone should have lived. My son said so. "but it's realisic" they say. Star Wars in not where I am looking for my realism. 

MENACE
For me this is still a wathcable movie tho'. Was disappointed more by the ending than Jar Jar.  Even the first time the Jedi battle felt forced and overly choreographed. 

CLONES
I love a good political drama, the book had one. Yoda the HedgeHog. Sigh. Likable parts.

AWAKENS
Better than SITH. Trying to be "a new hope" but just feels like a re-tread of Star Trek 2009. 

SITH
Unwatchable. Make me want to listen to Queen. 


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Greg Kirkman
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Joined: 12 May 2006
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Posted: 21 May 2017 at 9:25pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I liked the banter between Leia and Han.
++++++++

I've gotta say that I can't quite look at Ford and Fisher's onscreen interactions the same way after reading the latter's final book, THE PRINCESS DIARIST. There's always gonna be a twinge of sadness, from now on.


On a similar note, I'm curious as to how much all of our perceptions have been colored and influenced by knowledge of the personalities and politics involved with these movies, behind the scenes. 

I mean, realistically speaking, STAR WARS is intended for 12-year-old boys, and is best experienced under the veil of youth and innocence, isn't it? As a kid who grew up in the shadow of STAR WARS, I can attest to going through three distinct stages:

* Youth: The STAR WARS movies are The Greatest Thing Ever.

* Teens: One becomes aware of the Uncle Walt-ish George Lucas, and gets a sense of the filmmaking artistry which went into the films.

* Adulthood: One becomes aware of studio politics, personalities, retcons, and good filmmaking/storytelling vs. bad/filmmaking storytelling. There are rewards to reap from that knowledge, but the sheer joy of STAR WARS diminishes as a byproduct. In many ways, the story of STAR WARS is the story of my own personal growth--it's been a constant companion for as long as I can remember, and it's changed along with me.


STAR WARS is, in many ways, responsible for my love of the craft of film and genre storytelling, and I wouldn't sacrifice the knowledge and critical thinking skills I've acquired over these many years for anything. Still, it would be nice to be able to sit down and again watch the film(s) in the pure and simple way that only a child can!
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John Byrne

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Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 7:22am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I mean, realistically speaking, STAR WARS is intended for 12-year-old boys, and is best experienced under the veil of youth and innocence, isn't it?

••

I was 27. It was more important to be "young at heart" than to be actually short in years.

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 7:42am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

STAR WARS in 1977 was not even in the slightest a matter of kids dragging reluctant grousing parents to the movie theater.

It was absolutely an all-ages phenomenon.


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John Byrne

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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 8:17am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

ROUGE ONE

••

ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE…

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 9:05am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

STAR WARS in 1977 was not even in the slightest a matter of kids dragging reluctant grousing parents to the movie theater.

It was absolutely an all-ages phenomenon.
+++++++++

I by no means disagree with that, of course. I'm just saying that kids and teens were the intended target audience, and that the movie probably had and has the greatest impact on young viewers. Its mainstream appeal just proved to be much broader than anyone could ever have imagined!
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 9:07am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

ROUGE ONE
+++++++

Missed opportunity here for a STAR WARS-themed cosmetics merchandising tie-in.
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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 11:11am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Intended or not, STAR WARS may be the best example of a truly all-ages film.

And not only all ages, but all types.

As discussed in another thread, Star Wars (the movie and the franchise, but especially the first movie/trilogy), seems to be more accessible and less 'nerdy' than Star Trek. Perhaps it is more fantasy than sci-fi (especially with its fairy tale elements...the old wizard, the brave farm boy, the beautiful princess, the pirate, the evil empire, the "once upon a time" paraphrasing, etc), that engenders a broader appeal.

I am still mostly able to watch STAR WARS detached from all the behind-the-scenes garbage of the last 40 years (unless watching the Blu-Ray, which still pulls me out with the much busier Mos Eisley, Greedo shooting first, extra rocks for R2 to hide behind, the unnecessary and redundant Jabba scene, the non-English lettering, the shock wave from the exploding Death Star...).

Most of those are window dressing, and don't damage the movie, story, or characters too much (the Jabba scene does slow it down, and it doesn't tell us anything new; and having Greedo shoot first makes Han seem less dangerous), but really...just unnecessary. And distracting. At least for those of us who went 20 years without any of it. Now most of the changes have been around for as long as the relatively unmolested version...I guess they're not going anywhere.

At any rate, it can be enjoyed at any age. And not just because of nostalgia. But mostly because it's just really good escapist fare.


Edited by Brian Rhodes on 22 May 2017 at 11:20am
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 9:02pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

STAR WARS really does have something to appeal to everyone, I think. Action, romance, slick effects, mysticism, cool vehicles, weapons, and technology. The universe is so sprawling that everyone can find their own fandom within it, be it cosplaying as a Stormtrooper, building model kits, collecting action figures, doing charity work, writing fanfic, playing video games, etc.

As with STAR TREK, the question "Why is STAR WARS so popular?" has been asked again and again, to the point that it's become a cliche to mention the cliche of asking why it's so popular.

There's just some magical combination of elements which appeals to the young and the young-at-heart, and which transcends age/racial/gender/national lines. 

It really is staggering just how many game-changing elements are contained within that one film. It's certainly one of the best art-directed films of all time. The sound design was revolutionary. The music was a return to classic symphonic scores. The editing was revolutionary. The visual effects were truly innovative and groundbreaking. It marked a return to swashbuckling adventure in movies, and blew open the market for science-fiction and fantasy films. It changed how movies were made, marketed, and merchandised. 

I don't think it's at all a stretch to say that STAR WARS is probably the single most popular and influential film ever made. It's a stunning example of everything coming together at exactly the right moment in history. If any one element had been off, it could have been a disaster. Instead, it became a legitimate cultural phenomenon, a winner of seven Oscars, and has been homaged, referenced, parodied, and ripped-off more than probably just about any other film in history. Including by its own sequels!


Edited by Greg Kirkman on 22 May 2017 at 9:04pm
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John Byrne

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Posted: 23 May 2017 at 6:37am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Altho STAR TREK was dismissed by execs at NBC as a "kiddie show" it was far more "adult" in intent and execution than STAR WARS. Roddenberry was casting himself as a modern day Jonathan Swift, while Lucas started out emulating the Saturday matinee serials of his youth.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 23 May 2017 at 8:23am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Altho STAR TREK was dismissed by execs at NBC as a "kiddie show" it was far more "adult" in intent and execution than STAR WARS. Roddenberry was casting himself as a modern day Jonathan Swift, while Lucas started out emulating the Saturday matinee serials of his youth.
++++++

...and that's how I'd describe the fundamental difference between the two. They're two sides of the same coin, and scratch different itches. 

As a kid, I gravitated more toward the whiz-bang fun of STAR WARS. As an adult, I gravitate more toward the intelligence and moral/ethical questions of STAR TREK. 
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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 23 May 2017 at 9:00am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

I was definitely a Star Wars fan first. Perhaps why that it was THE WRATH OF KHAN that got me into Trek, with Industrial Light and Magic having done the effects and the awesome space battle(s) culminating in a gigantic explosion.

It's Star Trek that looks a little more like Star Wars, but feels like classic Trek.

Something the Abrams efforts don't, so much.


Edited by Brian Rhodes on 13 July 2017 at 4:09pm
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Monte Brown
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Posted: 12 July 2017 at 7:32am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Empire Strikes Back
Star Wars 
Revenge of the Sith
The Force Awakens

Attack of the clones
The Phantom Menace
Rogue One 






Easily the worst Star Wars movie: 
Return of the Jedi 
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Sam Karns
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Joined: 26 December 2004
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Posted: 16 July 2017 at 2:16pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

STAR WARS

THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK

RETURN OF THE JEDI

THE PHANTOM MENACE

ATTACK OF THE CLONES

REVENGE OF THE SITH

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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 27 July 2017 at 9:20pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

Star Wars
The Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi

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