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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 9:14am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

*SPOILERS PERTAINING TO SPACE SEED AND TWOK*

Here's the link:


Does anyone really want to see that?

It doesn't feel like the most interesting story that could be told. Khan was exiled on a hostile world, saw friends die and then encountered Kirk during ST II: TWOK. 

I'm not sure it would make for compelling TV.


Edited by Robbie Parry on 01 August 2017 at 9:15am
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 9:18am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

If they get the cast right, heck yeah I'd like to see it. 

You aren't sure it would make compelling tv? Oh my goodness Robbie, how could that not be compelling? 
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 9:22am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

A pre-Space Seed series or mini-series would surely be more compelling. ;-)
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Rick Senger
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Meyer's involvement in TWOK, THE VOYAGE HOME and THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY (to say nothing of TIME AFTER TIME) immediately gives him some credibility so I'm on board.  From what it sounds like, this needn't be particularly fettered by continuity issues either as the subject is Khan's fight for survival on the hostile and remote Ceti Alpha V, which we only see for a few minutes in TWOK. 
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 10:29am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

There have been two separate attempts to flesh out Khan's years in exile: Greg Cox's novel, TO REIGN IN HELL, and the Tipton brothers' IDW comic series, RULING IN HELL.

The latter acknowledges the former in its credits, since they share several plot points. After Ceti Alpha V becomes a wasteland, a splinter group forms among the supermen, and goes to war against Khan and his loyalists. Marla McGivers is subjected to a Ceti Eel by the splinter group so she can be forced to assassinate Khan, but this fails. After she dies (by suicide in the book, from the Eel's effects in the comic), Khan vows vengeance and defeats the rebels. Time passes, and the stories end with Khan and his people watching two Stafleet officers in spacesuits beam down near his cargo-pod home, leading directly into TWOK.

Aside from a nightmarish version of ROBINSON CRUSOE, I'm not sure there's a lot else to be done with Khan's story. Unless some major stuff went down during that 15-year period which Khan didn't bother to mention (like Klingons or other aliens visiting the planet), we already know the jist of it. 

And, the whole notion of a civil war between the supermen (obviously a means of generating drama) recalls Kirk's assessment of the Eugenics Wars in "Space Seed", but it strikes me as false, given the onscreen loyalty seen by Khan's followers. So, what, it's "These people have sworn to live and die and my command, 200 years before you were born...except for the guys who rebelled against me when times got rough"?

On the one hand, it's Nicholas Meyer, who wrote TWOK, and would be the logical guy to flesh out this story. On the other hand, it's Nicholas Meyer 35 years later. Times change, people change. Beloved creators returning to beloved stories decades after the fact tends not to work out so well.

The other factor, of course, is that of desperation/pandering. THE WRATH OF KHAN has major cache value among TREK fans (and perhaps even the general public). Tying this show in with TWOK in the wake of DISCOVERY's possible upcoming failure feels like an attempt to draw fans in by hitching the wagon to the most beloved of the movies. Just like INTO DARKNESS did, by bringing in Benedict CumberKhan and redoing Spock's death scene with a lame twist.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 11:37am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

THE WRATH OF KHAN has major cache value among TREK fans (and perhaps even the general public). 

-----

So much that they remade it... poorly... TWICE!
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 11:44am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

There are 15 years worth of potential story telling to be had. Nothing from the novels need to have any baring on what could potentially happen in this series. Knowing the jist of it isn't the same as seeing for ourselves what could have happened. I find the struggle to survive an interesting concept. 

As to there being a civil war among them. I think that could be entertaining. I also find the idea of showing Khan in the role of hero very interesting. 


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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 11:46am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

So much that they remade it... poorly... TWICE!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Twice, obviously there was Abrams failure. But what was the other time Michael ?
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Michael Casselman
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 12:12pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Nemesis?
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 12:30pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Nemesis?

-----

Yep. 
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 2:01pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Excellent post, Greg. A survival story in which we know the precise outcome seems to have little potential for suspense and the idea of a civil war seems very much to contradict the loyalty we see established in TWOK, as you rightly point out.

I respect Nicholas Meyer's work a lot, and all, but... This doesn't seem too exciting a prospect.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I feel this is the Paramount equivalent of DC or Marvel wanting to revisit the past with "Year One" or "Untold Tales".

For every BATMAN: YEAR ONE and X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS, both of which I like a lot, there are a dozen prequels, untold tales and the rest of it that I have zero interest in. This project is another one.
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 2:41pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Nemesis?

-----

Yep. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Is that the one with the Picard clone? 
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 3:28pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Yes
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 3:33pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Personally, and this is thread drift (sorry), there are so many others things I'd like to see, i.e. Starfleet Marine Corps or Starfleet JAG. 
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

It should also be noted that Harve Bennett pitched this very idea for a Khan film, not long after TWOK's release.

Between this and his Starfleet Academy "origin story" idea (which was set aside in favor of STAR TREK VI, and later repurposed into the first Abrams film), it seems like a lot of abandoned ideas are being resurrected, despite being abandoned for a reason.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 4:04pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Greg Cox' two novels concerning Khan and the Eugenics Wars are pretty engaging (for non-canon, of course.) Most especially because Gary Seven and Roberta Lincoln are significantly involved. Gary Seven vs Khan... that caught MY attention really hard.

This is a deadly trap that a lot of fiction is falling into, and Star Trek is right in the fore of the victims. "Let's tell old stories about old characters!"

Truly?

HEY MORONS! How about NEW stories that just as interesting and fun, but that WE DON'T KNOW THE END OF YET?!?!? I know it's an old fashioned idea, from an old man, but maybe something NEW might work!
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

I agree, Eric. And I think there are many tales to be told.

I don't want to turn this into a proxy comic topic, but when I hear about another retelling of Superman's origin, or a sequel to a CRISIS event, I think WHY? Same with Marvel revisiting old ground.

I actually think there ARE new stories to be told. Has Juggernaut ever fought Fantastic Four? I don't recall it. Let's see that! I don't ever remember Captain America taking on the Rhino or the Vulture. Let's see that! Have the Teen Titans ever faced Ocean Master or Professor Zoom? If not, let's see that!

Same with STAR TREK. Let's see the Starfleet Marines on the big or small screen. Let's see a Starfleet JAG mini-series. Hell, let's catch up with the Kelvans from the episode "By Any Other Name". Revisiting it would be, but it'd be fresh. Did they progress after their encounter with Kirk? I'd like to find out! 
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 5:41pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

I would prefer for Star Trek to look forward as well. If they want the design of the uniforms and ships to be more in line with what the film established. It makes more sense to set the next series after TNG era. At least that way they can justify the new design choices.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

If they are already hinting at 'Plan B' if DISCOVERY is a bust then you know Hollywood has already written DIS off.  It's a dead duck before it even airs.

A Kahn series could work if:

a) It has strong casting.  Montalban dominated the screen and commanded attention in every scene he appeared.  He was a rare combination of physical presence, vocal talent and acting chops that doesn't occur all that often -- consider that some of the most successful action stars in modern times (Arnie, The Rock, Stallone etc) only nail two of those three qualities at best and you'll understand why it would be a difficult part to cast correctly.  Cumberbatch was a poor casting decision (IMO) and sadly they will likely cast someone more like him -- precisely because there are more Bennidict Cumberbatch level actors out there than Ricardo Montalbans.

b) They resist the urge to make it "Game Of Thrones on Ceti Alpha V".  We have (if I remember correctly) 72 of the augments + 1 normal.  You just know they are going to carve this turkey up into factions who will be fighting each other but will have to later unite to fight some all-powerful big bad that threatens them all.  It will be a decompressed and snail-paced story.  Basically take a soap opera's neverending carrot dangling, make it look pretty, and maybe behead or incinerate a few sacrificial characters to keep the juices flowing.  Oh yes, and you will need to have a spreadsheet handy to keep track of all 72 virgins, err.. supermen.  Might as well chuck in a climate change allegory in there too, perhaps make the augments the cause of the destruction of Ceti Alpha IV.  Instead of apeing GoT or falling into the trap of 'writing with no plan' (**ahem** Lost, new BSG) they should just concentrate on *one* story and *one* small set of characters.   When the story is done don't artificially drag it out longer than it needs to be.  In other words, make it feel like goddamn STAR TREK!

c) Keep it strictly Abrams-verse free. That means: no time travel, no alterni-Kahns (especially of the Cumberbatch kind), no sparkly uniforms, no contact with Klingons, Romulans, or Starfleet.

Maybe they should just pay Michael Dorn what he's worth to do that Worf series they keep teasing.... 


Edited by Rob Ocelot on 01 August 2017 at 6:40pm
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 7:04pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

It should also be noted that Harve Bennett pitched this very idea for a Khan film, not long after TWOK's release.

Between this and his Starfleet Academy "origin story" idea (which was set aside in favor of STAR TREK VI, and later repurposed into the first Abrams film), it seems like a lot of abandoned ideas are being resurrected, despite being abandoned for a reason.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
Do we know the reason why they were abandoned?
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 7:43pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Do we know the reason why they were abandoned?

They sucked?

(sorry, couldn't resist)


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Michael Casselman
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 7:46pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

it seems like a lot of abandoned ideas are being resurrected, despite being abandoned for a reason.
--------------------------------------
Hey, we may finally get that "Kirk, Spock and the gang go back in time to save JFK" story after all!
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 9:41pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

Let's round up the worst of the abandoned TREK ideas, put them in a box with a dartboard, and mail them to CBS!
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 01 August 2017 at 9:51pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

Let's not write off an idea as bad before actually seeing anything on screen.
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