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Eric Sofer
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Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
Posted: 28 November 2017 at 9:34am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

And to add some sour persimmons to this awkward pie... Captain Marvel has been treated so inconsistently over the years that it's hard to identify aspects of the character besides his powers and "Shazam."

It is said that C.C. Beck HATED how DC treated Captain Marvel upon its resurrection... that they simplified the character and stories down to young children's level. I remember those stories... and I can't argue that too hard. That ended up with "Shazam!" becoming a reprint title for a while (X-Men, anyone?)

Came the Crisis, and after that, Shazam was psychotic due to pre-Crisis memories, and... oh, that's all I remember of that ludicrous four-part mini. Meanwhile, in Justice League, Captain Marvel was treated.like a nine year old. "Gosh, Mr. Gardner, I'm not really made of white bread."

Jerry Ordway's series gave it a good try to re-establish Cap - but it veered a little too far from the original story. In a variety of stories, artists couldn't decide what outfit he should wear. Giffen and DeMatteis got their hands on Mary Marvel (or "Captain Marvel", according to Mr. Ordway) in a couple of stupidly silly Justice League mini-series.

Since then, Captain Marvel seems to have been mauled and mangled. I say "seems" because I didn't read many Pu-52 stories, so I don't know about the kiddie Captain Marvel, or the new Monster Society, or when DC finally gave up on "Captain Marvel" and now calls him "Shazam." In a hoodie. 

I'm an old crank and FAR too old a fanboy, as Mr. Byrne would recognize... but I rather wish that somebody could just go back to the original concept and simply make Captain Marvel a character in super hero stories again as he was originally intended.
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Adam Schulman
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Joined: 22 July 2017
Posts: 1717
Posted: 28 November 2017 at 10:11am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I think Geoff Johns and Gary Frank were trying desperately to come up with a version of Billy Batson and his alter ego that contemporary readers would like.

Didn't work, it seems. And I hated it too. Notably, we haven't seen him since "Rebirth" began. He hasn't even been mentioned.

If it was up to me, I'd establish that the Earth-Zero versions of Billy, Mary, Freddie Freeman, et al have all lost their powers, permanently. And then we'd never see them again. All future Marvel Family stories would take place on Earth-5, where they very closely resemble their original selves, and that would be that. 


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Warren Scott
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Joined: 09 July 2016
Posts: 201
Posted: 01 December 2017 at 4:13pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Wow, Brian, don't mince words. Tell us how you really feel. In all honesty, I really did wonder how CM had been depicted in the past because I only knew him from the 70s. But I agree that fans can overthink a concept. For example, if CM is a separate person (and I'm convinced he is), I don't have to know where he goes when he's not been summoned by Billy. And Matt made a good point that regardless of whether CM is Billy or not, he does possess the wisdom of Solomon. If he can be shown displaying the speed of Mercury, the wisdom of Solomon should be acknowledged, too.I think that too many older fans feel a need to justify their interest in comics, particularly superheroes. I think that's why we're seeing so much violence and death (in a very graphic way). It's like they're saying, "Comics are serious because there are people getting killed!" Never mind that those people are coming back from the dead in some far-fetched way.

Edited by Warren Scott on 01 December 2017 at 4:22pm
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Brian O'Neill
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Joined: 13 November 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 1964
Posted: 01 December 2017 at 5:59pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

The 70s SHAZAM book always had a new story mixed in with reprints. The problem was, with C. C. Beck drawing the first few issues in that 'deliberate throwback' style, it was hard to tell which were the new stories and which we were the reprints. So, they had to keep mentioning that Billy had just been 'unfrozen' after 20 years, and golly, look at that guy with sideburns and a 'leisure suit', I think they call it. gee, fashions sure are odd in 1973..' etc. 
Even without Beck, the 'old fashioned look' continued, under Kurt Schaffenberger. Only in the last issue of that series, when Don Newton took over, did CM finally look like a '1978' character. From then on, the series ran in WORLD'S FINEST, written by E. Nelson Bridwell, until 1982. I consider that to be 'my' Captain Marvel. 

The 'de-aging' of Cap seems to have crept through the 1980s. Roy Thomas did a DC COMICS PRESENTS two-parter(in ine of his first DC assignments), in which CM and Superman traded quips in that 'casual, slangly, overly colloquial' conversational style that Thomas gave to every '20th century' character he ever wrote(not be confused with the 'purple prose' of every villain, 'past' or 'future' character he ever wrote.)
Maybe subsequent writers took RT's'voice' of CM to be a suggestion on how to write him going forward...and the idea that there would be no more 'Golden Age Marvels' after CRISIS made it 'acceptable' for there to be an entirely new, different...and, ultimately, goofy, corny, flaky, and mentally challenged...Captain Marvel.
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John Mariani
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Joined: 28 June 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 168
Posted: 05 December 2017 at 10:09am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Would love to see Don Newton's CM be collected. (Fat chance!).
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Eric Jansen
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Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2291
Posted: 06 December 2017 at 2:28am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Second that!

Wait till the movie comes out--I bet they put together every collection they can think of.

Edited by Eric Jansen on 06 December 2017 at 4:34am
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Andrew Bitner
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Joined: 01 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7480
Posted: 06 December 2017 at 10:30am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Captain Marvel is Billy's idealized idea of what being a grown up means, with the "wisdom" (maturity) that goes with it. He can do all the things adults can do and he's given the wits to appreciate what that means, the consequences of his actions, and so on.

They are one person, but the grown up version truly is grown up and not just a kid stuck in an adult's body. It's okay for him to share Billy's catch phrases--but he shouldn't be an overgrown child akin to Tom Hanks in "Big" (early in the movie, that is).
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