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Topic: So, We Can’t Get Any Dumber? Post Reply | Post New Topic
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Sergio Saavedra
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Joined: 13 August 2007
Location: Spain
Posts: 360
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 4:21pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Since you ask me,milk leukocytes are different to blood leukocytes. As a matter of fact, they can't be used in therapies, nobody could receive a transfusion of milk leukocytes in their bloodstream. But above all, the Bible ban is about blood and not milk.
It should be noted, I don't think JWs necessarily focus on blood transfusions. I mean, we also literally do not eat  blood. Blood sausages are very popular in Spain, yet I don't eat that. But while eating blood remains easy to avoid in modern society, the difficulty has arisen in the medical use of blood. That is why it seems to others that we focus on transfusions.

Anyway, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. :-)
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 11 February 2018 at 4:34pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

All I will say, Sergio, is that the JWs rules on blood came about only several decades ago. Your organisation was founded in the 19th century. It is odd that the ban on blood came about many, many years after that. 
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John Byrne

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Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 11 February 2018 at 9:01pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

...anthropomorphizes the Almighty...

As opposed to the Bible, which paints us a portrait of God as cruel, vengeful, misogynistic, jealous, petty, bloodthirsty, homophobic and sadistic.

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Dale Lerette
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Joined: 24 March 2010
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Posted: 12 February 2018 at 1:06am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

John Byrne: As opposed to the Bible, which paints us a portrait of God as cruel, vengeful, misogynistic, jealous, petty, bloodthirsty, homophobic and sadistic.
________________________________

That is a fairly accurate summary of my point. Without actually disparaging the Scriptures, I still have to admit it is ultimately still expressed through a variety of human languages, errors included.

What do you think of Einstein's thoughts on God?

To my knowledge Einstein never believed in a personal deity. He was more of a pantheist in the spirit of Spinoza. Yet I have to admit that I have personally found many of Albert's writings to be very inspiring, and even comforting at times.
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John Byrne

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Posted: 12 February 2018 at 4:43am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Many scientists have an unfortunate habit of using God as a metaphor. Einstein was no exception. Result, people who don't know any beterr will insist "Einstein believed in God."
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 4:57am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

It's not quite the same, but there have been a small number of occasions where I've been asked why I'm celebrating Christmas or saying, "Oh, my God!"

Things enter the vernacular. I bet many atheists have said, "Oh, my god!"

As for Xmas, I confess, I love the time off, I love the wine, I love the food, etc. It does not make me a believer.

But yet, perhaps facetiously, some will use that against me when they find out I'm an atheist. 

I was also once asked why I capitalise God. Someone told me I should type "god" rather than God. I capitalise God so as to make it clear I'm discussing the Judeo-Christian God in a debate. It doesn't make me a believer.

I suspect scientists who use God as a metaphor receive similar criticisms.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 9:17am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

"If you don't believe in God, why...

...do you celebrate Christmas?"
Well, everyone else is doing it. It's kind of hard to avoid. But I do eat Chinese food and go to movies... so I don't celebrate it. I endure it.

...do you say 'God bless you' after someone sneezes?"
I was taught that it was polite and good manners, and fifty years of a habit is hard to shake off. Would you prefer "Gesundheit"? Or "To your health"? Or just say nothing and seem rude?

...do you capitalize God?"
Robbie handled that one perfectly. I also capitalize Thor, Ra, and Ares, but I don't refer to them as Gods. Just gods.

...do you do this, that, or the other thing?"
Hey, you know what? My beliefs are none of your God damned business. Am I hurting you? Am I keeping you from believing what YOU want? Then go find some other cause to support. I'm doing fine and I don't need to be persecuted by you. Shoo. Shoo, shoo, shoo.
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John Byrne

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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 9:21am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I'm resigned to Xmas a a secular holiday. I have a tiny tree I put in the middle of my dining room table, on a red runner, and surround with the cards that come to Byrne Central.

Also I have a black and silver Halloween wreath that I hang on the front door at Yuletide.

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Dale Lerette
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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 10:03am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Keep in mind that for some who go to Church, that Sunday may as well be a secular holiday, too. There has been a large abandonment of faith over these last several decades. And sometimes they are going through the motions but do not actually believe in the event they are participating in. Some do not even really understand why they are there.

Edited by Dale Lerette on 13 February 2018 at 10:07am
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 10:04am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

I, too, have a tree each Xmas. I am aware of the origins of the tree, I am aware of what it represents, but, forgive me, in a way it's just a "tool" to hang chocolates from. Or to get into the spirit of things.

And it's the same with Easter. I just want a chocolate egg.
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Dale Lerette
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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 10:34am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

John Byrne: Many scientists have an unfortunate habit of using God as a metaphor. Einstein was no exception. Result, people who don't know any beterr will insist "Einstein believed in God."
_____________

Einstein's view seemed peculiar to me. He did often speak of 'God', but I think intended 'nature' when he spoke that way. He tended to believe in the orderly harmony of what exists, and ascribed that nature to God -- not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings.

For the record, this part was not peculiar. The peculiar part was when he was speaking of Jesus the person. He did not acknowledge the divinity of Jesus. He believed Jesus was a man. But Einstein nonetheless had very high praise for him.

When he was asked to what extent he was influenced by Christianity, he answered. "As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene."

Edited by Dale Lerette on 13 February 2018 at 10:36am
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Bill Collins
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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 11:55am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Christmas is one of those events that we seem celebrate,
more nowadays as the season of goodwill to all men.My
Hindu, Sikh and Muslim neighbours and work colleagues
send cards and presents etc.I`m with Robbie on Easter,
just gimme the chocolate! Although it must be noted that
many eggs don`t carry the word `Easter` nowadays.
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John Byrne

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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 1:37pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Luminous Jesus. He must be basking in the fires of Hell, which he described with such relish in Mark:

9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

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Dale Lerette
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Joined: 24 March 2010
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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

John Byrne: Luminous Jesus. He must be basking in the fires of Hell, which he described with such relish in Mark
_______________________

You lost me on this one, John. Not sure of the relevance of Mark 9:43-44 in the context of this discussion. Einstein did not believe in Hell. And I'm pretty sure you do not either.
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Eric Jansen
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Joined: 27 October 2013
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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 8:27pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

"...the fires of Hell, which he described with such relish in Mark"

So, a warning of danger becomes gleeful "relish"?  Methinks you might be imparting some things to the text which aren't there!
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John Byrne

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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 8:36pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

"Gleeful" is your word. "Relish" means enthusiasm, and given the multiple repetitions of worms and unquenchable flame, somebody was certainly being enthusiastic about something!

This from the Prince of Peace who loves us all, no less.

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 2:36am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

I capitalise God so as to make it clear I'm discussing the Judeo-Christian God in a debate. It doesn't make me a believer.

----

All this, and because people get confused when you refer to Jehovah, JHVH, Yahweh, YHWH, or Adonai.
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Brian O'Neill
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Joined: 13 November 2013
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 3:57pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Or 'G-d'.(There are only so many vowels, which one could it be?)
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Rebecca Jansen
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Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 1190
Posted: 14 February 2018 at 4:16pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

I remember some Marvel comic about 'G-D' in a Bizarre Adventures magazine I think. Al Milgrom was involved somehow I seem to remember.

Here's some of what I wrote in another post today that might be of use to others here, or not...

"As for religion, I'm a committed Pastafarian these days. I choose to believe on faith that the flying spaghetti monster loves all his little meatballs, and am comforted by wearing the sacred colander. Seriously; God (ineffable father spirit?) probably has nothing to do with these (bad) things (when they happen), unless it was creating something with free will in the first place. The Robin Hood type dude in the baby blankets never existed, sorry, he would've looked like Klinger in M-a-s-h, and having been addressed as Rabbi according to the oldest surviving bits, could've been married (horrors). It's nice to remember he is in the Qur-an too. He said some things a number of people felt should be remembered, and I value some of those things as still challenging."

People listening to each other is good, not everything you hear/read will be something you will like, but that isn't the same as it being not worth hearing at all. I think too that everyone should read some Hindu Upanishads. It's all for everyone, and about us, like comic books should be!
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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 6:49pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

G--d points!
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Eric Sofer
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Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 11:28am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

ITEM: Rebecca, might you be thinking about "Behold the Man!" in "Unknown Worlds of Science Fiction" #6, based on a Michael Moorcock story, by Doug Moench and Alex Nino? As I recall, a time traveller makes a concerted effort to find the true origin of Jesus, and hilarity ensues.

ITEM: To some, the name of God is very sacred, and not to be used lightly; "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain" applies to this, so they decide. Thus, we have G-d, YHWH, etc. In Hebrew, we use the abbreviation of two letters (yud-yud) or adoshem (literally, the name of God) instead of Adonai in "casual" conversation - literally anything less than a prayer directly to God.

ITEM: If God is everywhere, isn't He in Hell? Is this presence a further torment to damned souls? Or is it hope in a hopeless situation? Or in Christianity, is there hope for even the damned to be salvaged and saved? No sarcasm here... I'm curious what the official opinion is.
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Robbie Parry
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Joined: 17 June 2007
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 11:33am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

If God is everywhere, isn't He in Hell?

***

Is he in my pint of beer?

I must check out that "Behold the Man!" story, Eric. Thanks for the heads-up.
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John Byrne

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Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 12:01pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

ITEM: Rebecca, might you be thinking about "Behold the Man!" in "Unknown Worlds of Science Fiction" #6, based on a Michael Moorcock story, by Doug Moench and Alex Nino? As I recall, a time traveller makes a concerted effort to find the true origin of Jesus, and hilarity ensues.

"Hilarity" most certainly does NOT ensue. The story is quite grim, in fact.

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Eric Sofer
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Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2590
Posted: 15 February 2018 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

Mr. Byrne, you're absolutely right. I didn't mean it literally, but I guess I should have noted that. I use the phrase whenever I'm discussing some grim or dramatic situation without wanting to give away all the details. It's a personal quirk, among so many that I have.

It is not hilarious. It is tremendously thought provoking, and pulls no punches with regards to its consideration of religion.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 1190
Posted: 15 February 2018 at 12:48pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

No, I've never read Behold the Man, those magazines were very hard to find sometimes (though I had the first Star Lord appearance and am kicking myself I don't still have it. I'd be happy to read it though.

There was (I also don't have this anymore), a 'Gods' issue of Bizarre Adventures under a painting of Thor... #32. The 'G-D' story in it was fairly lightweight, I remember it as almost along the lines of those Editori-Al pieces in Marvel Fanfare though it may've had a serious point ala Kurt Vonnegut. The issue before, #31, (which I do still have, yay) was the 'violence' issue, and had a really well done John Byrne piece with 'God Is With Us' people coming and taking books in fact! Violence Wears Many Faces. So that could've run in either issue I suppose, but I have it right here. Why, that there could be proof of the hand of the almighty! But would a truly caring Lord have made me lose that more valuable (now 'key') Star Lord magazine? Answer: (there is always one don't you know so long as you have faith)... the stone rejected by worldly builders will be the keystone in the everlasting hereafter! So I guess Bizarre Adventures #31 will be more important in that pie in the sky time and not the hot movie Star Lord issue. Probably having #32 would keep you from entering or something, further along we'll know more about it...

Okay, I'll stop typing now.


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 15 February 2018 at 12:49pm
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