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Brian Floyd
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 07 July 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 8322
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 1:04am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Gwen's death, as powerful as it was, was cheapened by both Norman Osborn turning up alive AND the "Sins Past" storyline. The latter should either be permanently ignored, or eventually revealed as a complex ruse by Norman. ("Sins Past" required retconning to even be possible, as originally Gwen was only in Europe for a few weeks.)
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Greg Kirkman
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Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 1:11am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Some excellent observations, Greg, and I tend to agree with you concerning Gwen Stacy's death and the ways in which it reflects the themes in Spider-Man's life. Conway's "Parallel Lives" was a turning point in my moving away from comics in general as it basically erased every thought balloon MJ's character had ever had, replacing it "something else, we know not what," and turned her into Pete Ross. It really cemented the idea that casual retcons were going to be an ongoing thing in the writer's utility belt going forward.
++++++++++

I like PARALLEL LIVES as a story, but it clearly existed as damage control to smooth things out after the marriage was forced into the mainstream monthly books (and not just the non-canonical newspaper strip). Considering those difficult circumstances, I think Conway did a good job in making use of the groundwork DeFalco had laid, a few years earlier.

Of course, Conway always saw MJ as The One for Peter (which was a factor in the decision to kill Gwen off), and was the first writer to put them together as a couple, so it only seems appropriate that he’d be the one to try to tie it all together, post-marriage.
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Greg Kirkman
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Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 1:17am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Gwen's death, as powerful as it was, was cheapened by both Norman Osborn turning up alive AND the "Sins Past" storyline. The latter should either be permanently ignored, or eventually revealed as a complex ruse by Norman. ("Sins Past" required retconning to even be possible, as originally Gwen was only in Europe for a few weeks.).

+++++++++

This is the story which made me quit modern comics. I found it so distasteful and so wrongheaded that I realized that any semblance of respect for what had come before was draining out of the industry at an alarming rate. Of course, Spider-Man had been broken long before “Sins Past”, but this was my point of no return, as a reader. I haven’t looked back, and I’m happier for it.

I love Conway’s original Clone Saga from 1975, and that absolutely should have been the final word on Gwen Stacy, aside from the occasional flashback or passing reference. And, bringing Osborn back completely undercuts the themes of the story in which he and Gwen both died. Again, Roger Stern absolutely had the right idea by bringing back and modernizing the whole Green Goblin schtick in the form of the Hobgoblin, but leaving Norman dead, and Harry married and happy.


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Greg Kirkman
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Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 1:46am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

*exasperated sigh*

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Matthew Wilkie
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Joined: 09 March 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1139
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 3:43am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Dan and Marrina Smallwood springs to mind. That panel where Dan is told that Marrina is not returning home is heart breaking.  
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Philippe Negrin
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 01 August 2007
Location: France
Posts: 2644
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 4:55am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

The death of Gwen Stacy. It really hit preteen me. The fake save was particularly cruel and effective. 
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Eric Sofer
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Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 10:16am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Supergirl and Brainiac 5. If she had at some point decided to live in the 30th century, it might have worked... but Supergirl was too popular to have one boyfriend.

Bruce Wayne and Silver St. Cloud. I didn't like how every time she reappeared in his life, and seemed to be a great match, she would suddenly lose her nerve about being able to live with Batman as her husband. This was a tough broad, no question... and yet, that was what gave her cold feet?

I kinda liked Bat-Girl. I wish that someone would have thought of rekindling her and Robin's relationship. In the 70s, or even early 80s, it would have been interesting for him to have a costumed girlfriend.

Superman and Lyla Ler-Rol... even if she was an "older woman" :), and even if that story was doomed before it began, I thought it was great. I couldn't help but wonder what would have happened had she survived and made it to Earth (e.g., via Survival Zone.)

I would have liked to have seen more of the Vision/Warbird relationship. I thought that would have been both interesting and laden with story possibilities.

There are a couple of relationships that, while I don't entirely miss, had endings that were cop-outs. Geo-Force and Halo had a romance, and so did Henry Pym and Firebird. They were obviously more than platonic relationships, but in the end, they were more, "We're just friends / brother-sister type friends." Do romances REALLY end up that way, that fast?
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Doug Centers
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Joined: 17 February 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 5436
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 10:46am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Bernie Rosenthal and Steve Rogers- Would've liked to seen Stern and Byrne grow that relationship.

Douglas Thompson and Anne McKenzie- Awesome final panel of their relationship.

And yeah ,Wanda and Simon heart wrenching!
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Greg Kirkman
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Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 11:17am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

The Wanda/Vision/Simon love “triangle” is especially fascinating, given the fact that the Simon’s engrams were used as the basis for the Vision’s personality. What would be worse than having unrequited feelings for a woman who’s in love with what is essentially a photocopy of you?
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Robbie Parry
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Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 12:18pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

 Brian Hague wrote:
Robbie, was this the tear-shedding scene you remember? If so, it took place in Hulk #207...

Thanks for sharing, but not that one.

I remember some words. Hulk said something like, "Hulk knows he is a freak, knows he is not beauty..."
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Stephen Churay
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Joined: 25 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 8369
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 12:36pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Aurora and Walter Langowski. He already
has to deal with her split personalities,
but then he's trapped in armor. Is she
still in love with him? Is her love
conditional upon him getting a body again?
Probably the most adult, complex
relationship I have ever read in comics.
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Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 3:58pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Robbie, I am not familiar with that scene. I'd be interested in reading that story though.

I'm really enjoying reading everyone's responses here. So many memories flooding back. Brainy and Kara; Bat-Girl: Lyra Lerrol... "Superman's Return to Krypton" is a story that has long held a special place in my heart. Lyra herself appears in Super Friends #17, rescuing a time-travelling Jayna who is pinned down by Krypton's heavier gravity moments before Krypton's explosion.

Greg, I feel your pain regarding "Sins Past." That was a gnarled and twisted, ugly little story. It made Gwen complicit in never revealing what had supposedly taken place and it made her death an even more misogynistic exercise in cruelty. I'm not certain Marvel considers the story canon at this point. I have a vague sense that it was wished away into a cornfield pretty quickly after it was written.


Edited by Brian Hague on 11 February 2018 at 3:58pm
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