Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum MOBILE
Byrne Robotics | The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 4
Topic: Dead superheroines. Post Reply | Post New Topic
Author
Message
Adam Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 22 July 2017
Posts: 1717
Posted: 19 February 2018 at 2:16pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

There's absolutely nothing wrong with comics written specifically for adults. I'm overjoyed when, say, PERSEPOLIS or FUN HOME becomes a "hit." What was the best comics series of the 20th century? There's a good case for LOVE AND ROCKETS.

So yes, Gary Groth et al. are absolutely right that comics can be High Art. And if you don't like the superhero genre then no one's forcing you to. It's fine. 

But unless there's comics for kids out there -- at least for the smart 12-year-olds that once seemed to be Marvel's core audience -- then the likelihood that kids will grow up to buy Original Graphic Novels in mass quantities isn't that high. 

I don't read any Marvel titles but DC seems to finally be remembering this. Hence the erasure of so much of the New 52 years and, in particular, the writing style of TEEN TITANS and SUPER-SONS. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4492
Posted: 19 February 2018 at 9:49pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I'll just admit it, I really have a hard time accepting how adult/serious/important any comic book or strip can be. No offense to Will Eisner as I have appreciated his work, but all this graphic novel and sequential narrative re-naming has always left me cold. I expect I would be in a minority, maybe even of one, here, so thought maybe I'd better back away before I actually incite genuine anger. I think (and I can accept I could be proven wrong) that the closest the comic story form is likely to come to lasting literature is a Classic Comics adaptation of such, and even there you still can only adapt something that has a minimum amount of visuality to it.There are works of literature that are so cerebral that a storyboard of it would make My Dinner With Andre or Waiting For Godot look like Speed meets The Transporter.

And let's say somebody does make a significant mature and kids would find nothing to hang on to comic book with the greatest printing quality and Van Gogh level visuals... would any literati think to look for it there? Would it sell? Would it disappoint most comic book readers? Would it be extremely boring?

This is without bringing in super powers and costumes, I know they are not inherent to the medium. But it is inherently a visual medium, there has to be something of each supporting the other. It really seems to me a fool's errand for all the ink spent on trying to achieve such a thing, and I doubt Art Spiegelman was entirely trying to as single-mindedly as some, or imagined winning a Pulitzer. I hope his wacky packs stickers aren't now hanging in galleries because I stuck them on school books and luch boxes like they were supposed to be and not put in mylar with an acid-free board for posterity.

I think all the aiming at an adult audience is as you say Adam, at the expense of the 12 year old base that once existed. It may not exist anymore (despite free comic book day, which is great) and if you didn't read them as a kid you are very unlikely to as an adult.

I can imagine nothing more daunting that trying to write or draw for an adult audience (as in genuinely adult, not boobs and gore). Where the form/business/editors used to look for another Stan Lee or Gil Kane have they really been looking for Dostoyevsky and Monet? It must be intimidating enough to imagine following the acts of the various comic book pros of the golden and silver years never mind the supreme geniuses of all bloody time. Harper Lee or Henry James could've written Aquaman? Well, that might be an interesting experiment, but I was happy enough with Gerry Conway and Wendy Pini!

Good high quality affordable humble comic books that come out regularly, that is the backbone from which everything else can be decoration. This Issue! Not a hoax, not an imaginary story! Super-Purple-Lady Dies! (Cases of 100 available at a collector discount). Nope, no future, try again. Wuthering Heights did it centuries ago and better.


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 19 February 2018 at 9:52pm
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Adam Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 22 July 2017
Posts: 1717
Posted: 19 February 2018 at 11:01pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Rebecca,

I think I get what you're saying but some serious stories really are best done "with pictures." I can't imagine FROM HELL (Alan Moore and Eddie Campbell) or CAGES (by Dave McKean) done any other way. Or Kyle Baker's works (both comedic and serious). One could go on and on.

Are such comics up there with Joyce or Hemingway or Faulkner or name-your-favorite-important-20th-century-author? I'm not interested in making that argument. Are they up there with most serious literature produced in recent decades? Yes, they are. 

Art Comics are a good thing. We need comics primarily aimed at 12 year olds too. That's all I'm saying.


Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
Posted: 20 February 2018 at 9:36am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Ms. Jansen, first of all - your opinions are quite welcome here, and as long as you don't blow up and call everyone a thumb-fingered dunderheaded dolt (or perhaps something stronger... :), then you go right ahead and post your thoughts and opinions. Civil discourse is a delight, and something this board strives to maintain.

Comic books are a very wide and varied panorama. Although I've not read any, I know that there are European and Asian comics that are indeed more mature in theme, perhaps even qualifying as "graphic novels" more than "funny books." You used the phrase "sequential narrative"... I like that to describe comics with more mature content or format. But I'll refer to SN ('cause I'm lazy!)

Marketing comic books has long been a challenge. When they were available on the marketplace, that standard fare (super hero, funny animal, western, war, horror, romance, etc.) was designed for kids. They were disposable entertainment... plop down a quarter, get two or three books, read them once or twice, and trade them, give them away, or just throw them out. You and I have both heard stories of "My mother threw away my Action #1!"

SNs would probably have been welcome, but there wasn't much of a publicly acceptable outlet for them. Mr. Will Eisner was a genius, and developed the form... but his most popular work was still "The Spirit", which trod the line between comic book and SN. 

This is from fifty year old memories, but I recall that there was the occasional SN or "arty" comic magazine. But I never looked at those (and at eight years old, I shouldn't have.) The stores that sold these were to a very limited audience. The other outlet I can think of would have been Playboy, which experimented with a lot of different art... but not acceptable to the general public. And from this late vantage point, it's easy to see that Playboy was never in the same class as "Hot Jugs" magazine. (And to be fair, I don't suspect a lot of people bought Playboy for the articles... :)

I guess my first exposure to SN quality material would have been Heavy Metal, and other such magazines. Marvel very slowly got into that arena of periodicals (as opposed to comics), and I don't think that DC every did manage it. And even then, the mainstream comic publishers only used SNs as a curious sideline... something for their older readers (a brand spanking new concept at the time) to try, and to give those readers a reason to keep reading comics... since who would think a twenty-two year old man would buy Green Lantern or the X-Men? (I mention them both because I think Neal Adams started changing opinions with those books, along with Batman.)

And I think that publishers have made a gross mistake by limiting their output instead of expanding it. I feel that there could easily have been a mature comics line as well as a standard line... if it were adequately marked as Mature content, then there would be a market for twelve year olds as well as those twenty-two year olds  (or fifty-seven year olds... ;)

Instead, they focused only on the existing readership, and didn't leave much for the new readers. And so... to keep those readers titillated, they have to use dead superheroines.

*We've had quite the festive discussion about what comics should be called besides "comic books." If you check that topic out, you might be entertained. And no, no consensus has been reached on an alternate name for 'em.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4492
Posted: 20 February 2018 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I guess I can at the very least say people, any people, should be encouraged to try as far as 'important' literature or art. I don't think I would have it in me. And it is a point to say it shouldn't be done at the expense of a solid base of accessible for kids creations. I kind of feel that maybe the Dark Knight Batman was at some kind of expense, but it's hard to say precisely what. Maybe it's influence was harmful more than the doing of it which somehow seemed like a natural thing for someone to try. It and some other combinations have struck some as being underground comics using company owned characters officially.

I thought Power Pack was a ray of hope at Marvel, going by the first handful of issues anyway... I was very impressed when I found out it was able to run so long.

I've always hesitated to promote The Spirit with anyone because it is so dated. Unless you really dig film noir with femmes fatales and can overlook the almost constant presence of the little cartoony comic-relief negro. Other than pointing to the similar '40s Plastic Man and Green Lantern cartoony sidekicks there kind of is no explaining Ebony. I did keep a lot of the Kitchen Sink reprints though, plus the collected features book Cat Yronewode put together... storytelling 101.

I never saw anything wrong with anyone of any age buying any comic book, but I did sometimes have a real problem with taking a super-character and making it too adult in my opinion, especially in terms of violence for show or effect.


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 20 February 2018 at 4:05pm
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
Posted: 20 February 2018 at 5:22pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Ms. Jansen - regarding cartoony sidekicks, a great big number of Golden Age heroes had them - Wonder Woman, the Flash, Captain Marvel, Wildcat, the Spectre (yup), Batman, Hourman, Air Wave and Dr. Mid-Nite (to a lesser degree), Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt ;), Blackhawk, Black Canary... probably a lot more that I didn't read much of.

And Green Lantern, Plastic Man, and the Spirit, as noted.

The Spirit was one of the varied "alternate" types of comic books; that is to say, a police/detective film noir type setting, exactly as you said. There were some other types that stretched their genres somewhat (Vigilante and Stuff, the Chinatown Kid, or Red, White, and Blue, or even Dr. Fate or the original Vision.) But they still all tried to cleave to the big seller of the day - super heroes.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Adam Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 22 July 2017
Posts: 1717
Posted: 20 February 2018 at 5:23pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Will Eisner was a brilliant artist but I find many of his graphic novels too sentimental. I don't think I'd recommend A CONTRACT WITH GOD or most of the others.

I read DARK KNIGHT when I was 13. Maybe I wasn't supposed to. The comics shop owner didn't seem to care. I read WATCHMEN at 15...

DARK KNIGHT was probably a bad idea because, well, it's an "adult" Batman story. On the other hand, something like MIRACLEMAN doesn't bother me because Marvelman was a Captain Marvel rip-off who'd never made it to this side of the pond anyway. And the violence in MIRACLEMAN was in no way fun -- it was supposed to horrify you. In DARK KNIGHT you were supposed to enjoy Batman breaking people's legs and such. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
Posted: 20 February 2018 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Also, Dark Knight Returns was never supposed to be the actual future of Batman. Mr. Miller said that it was a kind of future treatment, but dystopia that only Batman could save them from. It was an imaginary story.

But it was so popular that I inferred that DC said, "We'll make this the REAL future and make this the REAL Batman" - without thought one of consequences, or drastic changes to the character(s).
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian O'Neill
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 13 November 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 1964
Posted: 20 February 2018 at 6:55pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Weren't 'Dark Knight Returns' and 'Batman: Year One' on sale within months of one another(maybe even some overlap?) It seems YEAR ONE needed to be the 'setup' for a journey that would eventually lead to DKR.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4274
Posted: 20 February 2018 at 8:56pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Year One began a year after Dark Knight Returns. About seven months between the final issue of DKR and the first installment of Year One. 
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 

If you wish to post a reply to this topic you must first login
If you are not already registered you must first register

<< Prev Page of 4
  Post Reply | Post New Topic |

Forum Jump

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login

You are currently viewing the MOBILE version of the site.
CLICK HERE TO VIEW THE FULL SITE