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Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17667
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| Posted: 18 February 2018 at 5:08pm | IP Logged | 1
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Aaaargh!
*an adult*
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 18 February 2018 at 5:29pm | IP Logged | 2
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It's interesting that some very distinct ideas JB expressed years ago are becoming DC's policy now. For example putting the artist's name first in the credits ahead of the writer's, which is what they are doing on the DC's new "Dark Metal" line. And also a return to the "Marvel-style" of plotting-artwork-scripting.
Hopefully after Marvel's recent disastrous changes to their flagship characters, Rule One will be everyone's rule soon.
Edited by Joe Zhang on 18 February 2018 at 5:30pm
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Warren Scott
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 July 2016
Posts: 201
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| Posted: 18 February 2018 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | 3
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I agree with JB. And this is partly what I meant in another thread about many modern writers thinking good storytelling is shocking people. It's not just about killing characters off. It's telling the reader/viewer, everything you thought you knew is wrong because, well, we changed it.
Of course, I'm not Steve Ditko, so I can't speak for him. But I think his point may have been that Spidey was a young, inexperienced hero who often made mistakes. Now, whether you can continue that for years without it getting old, I don't know. I suppose you can if the readership changes from time to time. But many readers have stayed for many years, and that may be why comics are in the place they are. The creators play lip service to attracting new readers but they're often just changing things up for the existing audience.
By the way, I think another core element of Spider-Man is that he's an everyman, a guy who often can't catch a break. I think making him a scientist with a model wife doesn't play well with that.
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4496
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| Posted: 18 February 2018 at 6:22pm | IP Logged | 4
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I've heard older fans who were buying comics in the '60s say how Marvel comics seemed to grow up with them up to around the early '70s. They thought it would go on forever perhaps? I guess that's a once-in-a-generation thing to experience. I suppose I got to experience a Jim Shooter attempt at it in the early '80s Marvels, discovered it was all an illusion of cohesion and real change, Stan Lee glad-handing hype about art and important milestones not really to be taken at face value, and found other things to read for awhile (or back issues missed to fill-in the fictional past). There were some big things that seemed to happen while I was buying the Marvels new... the truly true origin of Quicksilver and The Scarlet Witch, the deaths of Phoenix and Elektra, Spider-Woman too if less meaningful, Iron Man 'dealing' with alcohol, bits of Wolverine's history revealed, a small handful of new characters added that lasted like Power Pack, New Mutants, She-Hulk. A lot of it was undone or corrupted or whatever, but it got those quarters and a few dollars out of me more than DC got. I wouldn't want that denied later readers, or that they and later creators should be shackled to an ever-growing encyclopedia of fictional history thou must adhere to... so I'd really hate if most changes were permanent even if it means some back issue I have drops in importance/price. That's like you parents' or older siblings' Marvels will rule you.
I like Teen Titans Go! although I know many serious fans seem to hate it. It breaks all those continuity rules... that's what is so great about it to me! Plus incredible voice cast.
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 19 February 2018 at 8:12am | IP Logged | 5
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TANGENT: Ms. Jansen, there's a lot of cute things about "Teen Titans Go!" and I can see its appeal. It doesn't appeal to me, because I watched all five seasons of "Teen Titans", and even with its wink-wink bits, it was a really good cartoon. TTG seems to kinda denigrate that. So I don't demand it be removed from the airwaves :), but I don't enjoy it and don't watch it.
Maybe that's an adjunct to Rule One... if you don't like the property or its basic premise, DON'T WORK ON IT. I don't why someone who hates, say, Justice League, would write it... but if you feel like mocking and deconstructing a title, FORGET ABOUT IT. Go screw around with your own book.
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Don Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 November 2005
Posts: 2355
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| Posted: 19 February 2018 at 8:59am | IP Logged | 6
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Ditko actually thought Peter was
"Dumb" as in a kid who makes the kind of mistakes an adult shouldn't, I think. Not Flash Thompson dumb.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 19 February 2018 at 9:01am | IP Logged | 7
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"Dumb" as in a kid who makes the kind of mistakes an adult shouldn't, I think. Not Flash Thompson dumb.•• Precisely. (I wonder how things would have turned out if Stan had gone DC, and called the character Spider-Boy?)
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Victor Manuel Fernandez Patiño
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Mexico
Posts: 1600
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| Posted: 19 February 2018 at 9:10am | IP Logged | 8
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Many Marvel comics were published in Mexico during the 80's starting with the #1, the periodicity was weekly, it was amazing to be able to read the adventures of The Fantastic Four, The Amazing Spider-Man, The Avengers and Daredevil that way (I was twelve at that time). Then my inquiring mind tried to give time meaning (rookie mistake) because many of my friends insisted they should be older (same for Superman and Batman) and for me it was easy, each adventure lasted a day or less and I was happy until I understood the they were so fictional that time was irrelevant and that made me more happy.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132234
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| Posted: 19 February 2018 at 9:15am | IP Logged | 9
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When I did GENERATIONS I chose deliberately to make Bruce Wayne Jr. unlikable as Batman, as a way of demonstrating that "growth and change" were not necessarily good things. Many readers missed the point, and just complained that they didn't like the character.
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Robert Bradley
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Joined: 20 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4824
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| Posted: 19 February 2018 at 10:48am | IP Logged | 10
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Sometimes I think a writer feels he's "fleshing out" a character when he takes them in a new direction. (of course when a character has been around for 50 years, how much "fleshing out" does he need?)
Spider-Man shouldn't have a supermodel wife, shouldn't be wealthy and successful, shouldn't have a spider-totem or a membership in the Avengers.
He started down the wrong path when Stan & John Romita made him into Marvel's version of Archie Andrews with Gwen and Mary Jane interested in him. Making Mary Jane a supermodel was another mistake - you could possibly hold on the something of the original premise if you have him with a girlfriend with her own hangups and problems, but every success chipped away at the core concept.
And has a "loser" ever had so many beautiful girlfriends?
Edited by Robert Bradley on 19 February 2018 at 10:52am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132234
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| Posted: 19 February 2018 at 11:21am | IP Logged | 11
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As Roger Stern (him again!) used to say, it was fine for MJ to go off and become a supermodel provided she kept her original "playgirl" personality, and functioned primarily as a maguffin, wandering back into Peter's life at inconvenient times. When she "settled down" and they became a couple and, worse, married, the problems started to roll in. Important too, to remember that it was Stan, writing the newspaper strip more as soap opera than superhero adventure, who wanted the marriage, and there was no good reason to bring it into the books.
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Joined: 02 July 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 3823
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| Posted: 19 February 2018 at 11:35am | IP Logged | 12
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Great rule! It should be carved in stone.
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