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John Byrne

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Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 28 December 2018 at 2:41pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

So the BBC in it`s infinite wisdom let the cat out of the bag with the latest trailer for New Year`s Day, i suspected the villain, but they could have resisted spoiling it.

•••

Well, she’s not really the Doctor until.... you know.

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John Byrne

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Posted: 28 December 2018 at 2:47pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Something just occurred to me.

I’ve mentioned before how the series seems to handle each iteration of the Doctor as somehow “writing over” the previous ones (as when the guy in the first NuWho episode showed Rose a history of the Doctor, and they were all Eccleston). How does that work now, with Lady Who?

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Bill Collins
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Posted: 28 December 2018 at 3:24pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Who`s to say there were not previous lady Doctors we
just haven`t seen? It`s a can of worms!
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Andrew Saxon
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Posted: 28 December 2018 at 3:29pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I'm not sure, sir. We saw Matt Smith's Doctor looking at a portrait of David Tennant's incarnation in The Day of the Doctor, and in that same story Clara was seeing the four Doctors present as being physically different from one another, which would seem to suggest no overwriting is taking place.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 28 December 2018 at 5:43pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

On a recent rewatch of the Davies era stuff, I think that seen in "Rose" was written under a different philosophy.  While it was clearly implied that the Doctor had just regenerated and familiar villains began to appear right off the bat, it took some years for them to actually show images of the Classic Doctors.  I think in the early phase, it was more reboot than continuation, and then that changed.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but it wasn't until "The Next Doctor", Christmas 2008, that it was really established that the classic series was 'in continuity'. At which point Tennant and Davies were on their way out.

I have no behind the scenes Who info related to this, but as a viewer, it reads to me that way the early seasons of TNG were treated by Roddenberry.  This is the new thing.  We aren't going to outright say that the old thing didn't happen, but we aren't going to refer to it either if we can help it.
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John Byrne

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Posted: 28 December 2018 at 8:13pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

In that first NuWho episode we saw the newly regenerated Doctor, and we saw “later” adventures which were, from our perspective, earlier. Which is a good way to establish him as a time traveler.

The mistake—if that’s a fair description—was for the Whostorian to have tracked only one of the Doctor’s iterations. Surely, someone so deeply invested in tracking the Doctor’s actions would have figured out (at least) that there were multiple figures on that path, even if he didn’t figure out they were different forms of the same guy.

(This is the opposite of cumulative time travel, where events involving the traveler don’t happen in the Past until the traveler causes them to happen. In NuWho the Doctor’s adventures in the Past were there even tho, from our perspective, he hadn’t had them yet.)

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Craig Bogart
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Posted: 01 January 2019 at 7:06pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

In Pertwee's first episode, the Brigadier doesn't recognize him, expecting to see Troughton's version; Benton remarks on the Doctor's changed appearance in "Robot", and a reference is made again to changed appearances when the Brig meets McCoy's Doctor; so the "writing over" past incarnations doesn't seem to be the case.
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Craig Bogart
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Posted: 02 January 2019 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Also, if memory serves, the "Whostorian" referred to in the first episode of the relaunch mentions he thinks that "Doctor" is a title passed down through several individuals, suggesting he has seen evidence of other incarnations but hasn't connected the dots.

The improbable coincidence in the episode is the notion that the incarnation he has chosen to focus on is the same one Rose has encountered the day or two before.

(Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm in no hurry to rewatch a Rose Tyler episode to see if my memory is accurate.)
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John Byrne

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Posted: 02 January 2019 at 3:29pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

In Pertwee's first episode, the Brigadier doesn't recognize him, expecting to see Troughton's version; Benton remarks on the Doctor's changed appearance in "Robot", and a reference is made again to changed appearances when the Brig meets McCoy's Doctor; so the "writing over" past incarnations doesn't seem to be the case.

•••

The “write over” seems to work retroactively—always assuming it works at all. I’m not suggesting this is a real thing. Just every so often it seems to work that way.

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 02 January 2019 at 4:38pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

it took some years for them to actually show images of the Classic Doctors.  I think in the early phase, it was more reboot than continuation, and then that changed.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but it wasn't until "The Next Doctor", Christmas 2008, that it was really established that the classic series was 'in continuity'. At which point Tennant and Davies were on their way out.

———

I think it would be the second season’s “School Reunion”, which brought back Sarah Jane and K-9, that established that. We also see the previous Doctors (in illustrated form) in the Journal of Impossible Things from the third season’s two-parter “Human Nature/The Family of Blood”, which was the first on-screen confirmation that Paul McGann’s Doctor was canon. 
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Mike Devlin
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Posted: 05 January 2019 at 4:08am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

 John Byrne wrote:
In that first NuWho episode we saw the newly regenerated Doctor, and we saw “later” adventures which were, from our perspective, earlier. Which is a good way to establish him as a time traveler.
The mistake—if that’s a fair description—was for the Whostorian to have tracked only one of the Doctor’s iterations. Surely, someone so deeply invested in tracking the Doctor’s actions would have figured out (at least) that there were multiple figures on that path, even if he didn’t figure out they were different forms of the same guy.

Yeah that scene always bugged me too, due to the lack of Doctors uncovered by the Whostorian. I assume the real world reason for the lack of Doctors is that Russell Davies didn`t want to scare away the Civilians , as they were introduced/ re-introduced to DW, by hitting them with too much continuity too soon.
But that scene clearly cries out for more of the good Gallifreyans!

Flash forward to 2018 and the novelisation of "Rose" by Mr. Davies - and he`s dramatically changed that big infodump scene, between Rose and the Whostorian (Clive). This time it`s clear Clive is indeed aware of "all" the Doctors - producing files on Doctors 1-8 and showing Rose pictures of them all therein. She even sees photos of Doctors 11-13 and even some other future Doctors to boot! Before the Whostorian produces a box-file devoted to "09" and giving Rose the lowdown on "her" Doctor...


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John Byrne

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Posted: 05 January 2019 at 6:34am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Not being aware of what are to us “Future” iterations of the Doctor doesn’t trouble me so much. DOCTOR WHO, as previously noted, tends to play time travel as cumulative, with events in different time periods, as viewed from our perspective, follow the Doctor’s timeline, and so “don’t happen” until he causes them to happen.

It comes down to time being a river, and the traveler being in a boat on that river, or in a car driving along the shore. The Doctor is in the car.

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