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Rodrigo castellanos
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Joined: 03 July 2012
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 549
Posted: 07 December 2019 at 6:37pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

The show touches on the same themes of identity, power, lies, and violence that the book does. 

That is a statement so vague it's almost completely meaningless. You could say the same thing about The Irishman. Or any Scorsese film. Or the Godfather trilogy. Or Game of Thrones. Or any Shakespeare. Almost anything applies, really. It means nothing.

The article cited explicitly says the TV show is about different themes than the comic, and celebrates it for it. I personally don't agree with the latter but it's a valid opinion. Seems pretty pointless to try to spin it.

And the question remains unanswered: if it explores different themes, and the few characters from WATCHMEN used are completely different than who they are in the comic, why call it WATCHMEN?

If Lindelof wanted to make a race allegory using superheroes in a 2019 woke style, he could've done it all by himself. I might've even liked it if not for his annoying (IMHO) narration style (I'll concede that the Hooded Justice episode is a solid hour of television, if you divorce it completely from the comic and ignore the stupid makeup thing).

But if you call it WATCHMEN, it invites comparison. And that's a very, very hard battle to win.






Edited by Rodrigo castellanos on 07 December 2019 at 6:44pm
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Christopher Frost
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Joined: 24 October 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 403
Posted: 07 December 2019 at 10:02pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

That's only a "very, very hard battle to win" if you think that Watchmen was some amazing piece of literature that could never be improved upon or needed to be followed up on. Clearly you do but many of us disagree with that assessment. I'm enjoying the show far more than I've ever enjoyed the comic it's following up on and that says something to me about it's quality. The comic never made me excited for the next issue and as I've noted previously in this thread, I find it a chore to revisit. The show, on the other hand, has captured my interest and leaves me wanting more. I'd call that a success in my book. 

As for differing opinions, that's the way it should be. Different people like different things and get different things out of the same experiences. The world would be a boring place if we all agreed on everything. A good healthy debate can be fun and informative. What I don't like is the dismissive attitude that far too often creeps into these kinds of discussions. You like something? Fine. You don't like something? Fine. But then it usually degrades from there to a place where people start looking down their noses at the opinions of others and take on the attitude of "you like THAT? you must have poor taste! or not be a "real fan" " or some other similar thing. It's fine to disagree with others but when you take on an air of superiority with regards to your own opinion, it crosses a line into arrogance. Some people like chocolate, some people like strawberry, some people don't like either. That doesn't make anyones opinion better or worse than anyone elses, it just means that we like different things. 
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Rodrigo castellanos
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 03 July 2012
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 549
Posted: 07 December 2019 at 10:40pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Where to begin?

Ok, I'll take a tangent. 

I'm not a fan of James Cameron's latest efforts, TITANIC and AVATAR. But the fact that I personally don't like those films can't shake the fact that they both were the highest grossing film of all time when they came out. This guy has something going on, it would be ludicrous to deny it.

Same goes for Lindelof and TV. I don't like anything he was involved in but the man knows his stuff. He can get audiences hooked, and it's happening again. Again, good for him. 

I don't have an axe to grind nor I wish the WATCHMEN TV show to fail, I just don't get it. And what I don't get mainly is why he felt the need to present this show as a continuation of WATCHMEN when the themes are different and the characters borderline unrecognizable, as I've already said.

In your case, you're not a WATCHMEN comic fan yet you like the TV show. I also find this intriguing. Maybe that's why you let the thematic and tonal differences and the wild mischaracterizations slip by. Sorry, but I can't afford that luxury. And in this case, I guess it's my turn to play the role of the offended fan, like so many have in the past about web shooters or differences in Captain America's uniform. What can you do.

On WATCHMEN being "an amazing piece of literature that can never be improved upon", I'll use the Cameron analogy again. The fact is WATCHMEN is almost 35 years old now and it hasn't been improved upon. No piece of superhero fiction has had that level of critical acclaim and commercial success since. I wish something had, but it's not the case. You don't like it and find it a chore to read? Great, but it's still what it is. 

Anyone can like what they like, Alan Moore himself says his favourite comic of all time is HERBIE for some reason. But things are still the way they are.

 





Edited by Rodrigo castellanos on 07 December 2019 at 11:12pm
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Rebecca Jansen
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Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 1984
Posted: 07 December 2019 at 11:20pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

A company started the project, a company owns the property, they have sold it many times over, they are going to get whatever they can out of the property short of destroying it although that has been done before. It's superheroes, commercial superheroes, that's how it is, this is not a classic work of great literature in a medium adults traditionally have respected, it's a commercial visual property, from start to present. If they can sell Rorschach pajamas they will sell them, if they can sell fake blood spattered buttons they will. That is all the why there is. Don't work for or support such companies if you don't like that. Alan Moore probably feels he shouldn't have, but would anyone even know his name today otherwise?
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Michael Roberts
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Joined: 20 April 2004
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Posted: 07 December 2019 at 11:34pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

The White Supremacy themes of the show are not wholly divorced from the Cold War theme of the comic. They are meant to be parallel. They both represent an existential threat to America. Lady Trieu even insists she is saving the world by stopping Keene and the Seventh Cavalry’s plan. Both are sources of ugly violence in America’s history that gets whitewashed. Both have shaped US politics in negative ways. These are reflected in the characters of each era. They are different themes, but represent the same things to both the characters and the readers/viewers. 

If anything, the show hews too closely to the framework of the comics. The events are both kicked off by a mysterious murder. They both use in-story fiction to make commentary to the events of the story. Lady Trieu is an obvious analog to Ozymandias, and it’ll be even more on the nose if she turns out to be Adrian Veidt’s daughter as the show seems to be telegraphing. Looking Glass is both a stand-in and foil to Rorschach. Sister Night has elements of both Silk Spectre and Nite Owl. The main characters are uncovering some mysterious plan to save the world from the self-styled smartest person in the world. 

Laurie is a different person, but who wouldn’t be? You are comparing thirty-something woman in the 80s to a woman pushing 70 in the 2010s. Of course she’s different. But I can certainly draw the line from the character in the comics to the character in the show.

The Veidt scenes are over the top, and it’s certainly a YMMV thing, but most people I discuss the show with enjoy them. And Jeremy Irons isn’t doing a British accent. It’s a weird accent, and it seems like his attempt to do a Mid-Atlantic accent, but there are enough non-Britishisms to believe he’s just not doing his normal voice. 
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James Woodcock
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Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: 08 December 2019 at 12:58am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I agree Michael. I really do not get the impression He’s actually British in this. We need to see beyond Jeromy Irons here
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Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
Posted: 08 December 2019 at 1:31am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Rebecca Jansen wrote "Don't work for or support such companies if you don't like that. Alan Moore probably feels he shouldn't have, but would anyone even know his name today otherwise?"

I thought we weren't doing this "Alan Moore needs to get a clue" thing in this thread anymore. Perhaps you should start an "Alan Moore is a naive bozo" thread all its own, Rebecca. In the interests of positivity and harmony, of course. 

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Rodrigo castellanos
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 03 July 2012
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 549
Posted: 08 December 2019 at 5:04am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Hi Rebecca, glad to see you again.

The answer to your troubles is, again, "Frankenstein".

Did it start as a pulp exercise but is now an undisputed literary masterpiece? YES

Has it been commercially sold and repackaged hundreds of times in the most ridiculous ways as a visual property? YES

Does that fact lessen its literary value? NO

What's your point? GOD ONLY KNOWS

I agree Michael. I really do not get the impression He’s actually British in this. We need to see beyond Jeromy Irons here

Yeah, let's not jump to conclusions here. The fact that he uses a thick British accent (I'm pretty sure Jeremy Irons can do an American accent if he was told to), dresses as a British lord in a British style mansion with British styled servants he orders around in British lord fashion while playing a character that championed eastern philosophies and surrounded himself with Egyptian and Asian decor is not a mischaracterization at all. 

Also, he farts now.

We're clearly in "justifying anything" territory now. Alan Moore definitely has a weird effect on some people.




Edited by Rodrigo castellanos on 08 December 2019 at 5:09am
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Carlos Velasco
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 02 August 2019
Location: Spain
Posts: 133
Posted: 08 December 2019 at 11:45am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

If this forum had emoticons, I would use a yellow face laughing instead of this message.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 13258
Posted: 08 December 2019 at 12:41pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

The fact that he uses a thick British accent (I'm pretty sure Jeremy Irons can do an American accent if he was told to), dresses as a British lord in a British style mansion with British styled servants he orders around in British lord fashion while playing a character that championed eastern philosophies and surrounded himself with Egyptian and Asian decor is not a mischaracterization at all. 

-----

Jeremy Irons is not using a British accent. I'm sure there are instances of his natural accent slipping in, but there are definitely purposeful non-British pronunciations. Jeremy Irons' tomaytoes vs Tom Mison's tomahtoes as one example. Lindelof posted the script pages for Veidt's introduction online, and "The Blonde Man" is noted to have an American accent, while the servants are noted having a British accent.

What you are hearing is Jeremy Irons trying to sound like Frasier Crane and not exactly nailing it.

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John Byrne

Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 120403
Posted: 17 December 2019 at 8:06am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Watched the finale. The original comic is no longer the most pretentious piece of claptrap I've ever seen.
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Tim O Neill
Byrne Robotics Security


Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10266
Posted: 29 December 2019 at 4:50pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply



Finally saw the finale the other night - I thought it and the whole series was
excellent. I think I liked the series better than the book, but that is probably
because it is so fresh in my mind. Since they both co-exist in the same world, I
see it all as one whole story now.



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