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Topic: When to Stop Reading Superhero Comics Post Reply | Post New Topic
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Craig Earl
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 13 July 2019
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1234
Posted: 12 April 2020 at 4:38am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I was a big Marvel buyer, back in the day, from the mid 70's up until the early 2000's. 

Throughout the worst moments of this time I experienced:

1) An overexposure of characters like The Punisher & Wolverine 
2) The Rob Liefeld huge-gunned muscle bound guys and the broke-back gals with their own huge guns. 
3) Stories and characterization with all the depth of a puddle.
4) Constant failed revamps of classic characters.
5) Those stupid 'events' that ran through every annual 

Eventually, that did it for me. I would occasionally pick up the odd TPB but more often than not, I was underwhelmed to say the least.

In 2003 I picked up Image's The Walking Dead (which was great for the first four or five years) and then added one or two other Image titles (Thief of Thieves, Criminal).

When I do weaken and pick up anything new from Marvel, I see nothing that made me fall in love with the characters all those years ago.
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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132234
Posted: 12 April 2020 at 4:40am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

There should be two lines of comics.

•••

Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko (not to mention many others) crafted stories that could be read and enjoyed by all ages of readers.

Is that not possible anymore?

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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
Posted: 12 April 2020 at 8:29am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Mr. Byrne, it might not be possible any more at that. The issue is, I feel, a bigger one. Even if Marvel revised a number of their titles (the so-called "Golden Age" as I recall...?), the stories don't matter a lick if you CAN'T GET NEW READERS TO BUY THEM. Old readers who've quit (such as myself - who prob'ly shouldn't read comics any more... but that's another topic) will not be drawn back. New "readers" either have no interest in comic books or don't enjoy them from someone else's books they borrow. Add to that a FRIGHTFUL price point... and who are you going to get besides the current niche readers? Publishers don't even have a legitimate body of readers to make changes for. How can they when a large percentage of readers want (for example) to see Wonder Woman raped or Johnny and Sue have an affair.

And as Mr. Byrne has often said - comics started getting lost when the weather vane switched from "How can I tell the greatest Captain Fonebone stories?" to "How can I use Captain Fonebone to tell MY stories?" Shploinkkk.

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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12429
Posted: 12 April 2020 at 9:09am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

My younger son is 12 and he's on a break from (Zoom) school
and he spent the past three days reading old comicbooks and
really enjoying them. I have no idea what the industry
could do at this point in time to "get" kids like him as a
reader. But it doesn't seem anybody running the industry
has been interested in continually acquiring the next
generations of young readers for many decades.

All-ages stories would be a good start, though!
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
Posted: 12 April 2020 at 9:30am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Michael P. - if it were up to me... I'd take out death and killing from comics. The Joker has kidnapped the victims for ransom, or is planning t kill them - but hasn't yet. The Joker venom is incapacitating, but not fatal.

I think that's a huge step to fixing books.
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Tony Marin
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 28 August 2018
Posts: 96
Posted: 12 April 2020 at 10:07am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

 I saw a page recently from a book where Joker skinned a man alive and they showed it. I thought it was so over the line and inappropriate. Also if this character is such a horrific murderous bastard his continued existence in that world makes Batman look like a fool. Yes he’s killed in the past decades but it was done with style and panache but this was like something out of Seven type brutality. It just comes down to they’re not fun for anyone anymore, even for the people who persist in buying them hoping that’ll it change. Bruce Timm, who I once thought could do no wrong with Batman, produced the Killing Joke Animated movie that added a sex scene between Batgirl and Batman. Did no one involved pipe up and say maybe this is going too far? I know it’s a strange thing to say about anything concerning that book but c’mon!
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Brian Hughes
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 15 June 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 292
Posted: 12 April 2020 at 10:16am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I have been thinking about this for a bit.  I wonder if this would work?

Start a line of comics for the most well known characters written for all ages.  Sell these through big stores like Walmart and Target. A lot of books would have to be printed though, and they would have to be  positioned as close to checkout as possible.  Those are the two major hurdles as printing has become so expensive no matter what they use for printing media.

The comic book companies would not balk at starting a number of books off at #1 again and could make this the current "Big Event".  

It also would create the impulse buy experience needed to catch those young readers while their parents wait at checkout.

Just a thought.
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Craig Earl
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 13 July 2019
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1234
Posted: 12 April 2020 at 10:20am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

When I was a kid, if you could suspend disbelief for the duration of a comic book reading session, you could lose yourself in a world of heroes.

Now you don't have to. 

You can watch mind-blowing special effects in multi-million dollar movies, watch flashy cartoons, or play as your favourite hero on any number of games consoles.

Therein lies the problem.
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Craig Earl
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 13 July 2019
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1234
Posted: 12 April 2020 at 10:39am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I have no problem with adult topics in comics, but there has to be a way of handling characters that have, at some point, also been pitched at younger readers. MIller's DD did this well enough and didn't overstep the mark IMO.

Comics are a medium in their own right and cover a huge amount of genres (in the same way that films and books do). If the quality of the material is right, I don't think that I shouldn't ever feel that it's time for me to quit reading comics; for the same reason that I wouldn't stop watching movies or reading books. 


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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12429
Posted: 12 April 2020 at 11:22am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

One of my favorite movies as a little kid (and even to this
day) was THE ADVENTURES OF ROBIN HOOD. That film includes
pretty rough behavior (torture, attempted rape, killings
galore) -- but never graphically depicted in a way that
brutalized my young sensibilities. A perfect example of all
ages story telling.
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7604
Posted: 13 April 2020 at 1:43am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

There are sooo many issues with moment comics that it is difficult to
know where to begin.
Storytelling
Art
Price
Distribution & availability

To name but a few of the major issues.
Storytelling - suffers from decompressed story, mega crossovers, &
being too mature.
Why pay £4 for something that takes 5 minutes to read & equates to
something like 10 minutes of screen time?

Art - a lot of impenetrable art. Kids need clear storytelling, not
impenetrable art house art. You can be experimental yet still have a
clear narrative. A lot of art also seems to be very cartoony in form &
narrative, which doesn’t match the actual story.
A good writer should match the story to the strengths of the artist.
Maybe that why the Marvel method worked so well with the artists
plotting to their strengths.

Price - I understand comics needed to increase in price. But the
current price point, when compared with other products @ that price
point does not compare. By all means have expensive prestige product.
But there needs to be a large volume of product priced @ roughly half
the current price point. Make that reprints if you must, but do it.

Distribution & availability - not just the DM needs breaking. Production
& the acceptance of late delivery, often by months, is just ridiculous.
Hollywood sets a date & delivers. Industry sets dates & delivers.
Comics are beyond unprofessional in their inability to hit deadlines,
Especially on their flagship books. That needs to stop.
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Ben Herman
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 01 March 2020
Location: United States
Posts: 113
Posted: 13 April 2020 at 9:40pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Tony Marin:  I saw a page recently from a book where Joker skinned a man alive and they showed it.

.....

Yuck! I haven't been able to stand the Joker for a looong time. The desire by DC Comics to continually outdo the one-two punch of The Killing Joke and A Death in the Family has led to 30 years of escalating the Joker's crimes to absolutely ridiculous levels, to the point where he must have gruesomely murdered thousands of people by now, and you sort of just want to never see him again.

I felt the best version of the character in the last three decades was on Batman: The Animated Series. The fact that the show was not allowed to show the Joker killing anyone forced the writers to actually come up with clever and imaginative ways in which to make him dangerous and scary, instead of relying on gruesome violence and gigantic body counts.
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