Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
Star Trek MOBILE
Byrne Robotics | Star Trek << Prev Page of 3
Topic: Pike spin-off ó STAR TREK: STRANGE NEW WORLDS Post Reply | Post New Topic
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 13406
Posted: 15 October 2020 at 3:13pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

But, Matt, I have said most of the same things at one time or another. Not in so vituperative a manner, certainly, but the same things.


Part of the insidiousness of the current Gamergate/Comicsgate/Star Wars and Trek fan toxicity is that it uses arguments that might be valid as a singular statement to craft a narrative that entertainment is under assault from a culture war and that inclusiveness and progressivism are the enemies of good storytelling. 

It's not "reboots suck"; it's "that reboot sucked because they tried to force a female lead". Any attempt to have entertainment try to reflect what diversity looks like /today/ is dismissed as "wokeness" and an "SJW agenda". They complain about the perceived injection of politics into their entertainment, but if you point out that the politics of people like Gene Roddenberry and Rod Serling were very much a fabric of their respective shows, they'll shrug it off with "Well, it wasn't heavy-handed. They weren't trying to tell you what to think." (Really? Even as a kid, I was kind of clear where Roddenberry stood on racism and Serling stood with war.) 

The most entertaining thing though is listening them chant their mantra of "Get woke, go broke", insisting that inclusion is driving everyone from entertainment, and then watching them bend over backwards to explain why a project that was successful (at least financially) wasn't really a success. It's unsurprising that there's an overlap between these groups and American conservatives.

From both your body of work and the more nuanced discussions you have on this board, I don't get the sense you are about any of the above.
Back to Top profile | search
Andrew Bitner
Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 01 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6147
Posted: 16 October 2020 at 10:32am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

While it's possible to argue that the more recent efforts in STAR TREK (to limit this to one franchise) have not hit a sweet spot in terms of balancing story with action, etc. (FWIW, I like Discovery quite a bit), politics is in ST's DNA. 

If the reboots--the Abrams remakes, in particular--have failed, it's partly because more recent creators are trying to stay away from this in order to appeal to the widest possible audience. In the process, we get watered-down Trek. It also doesn't help that too many of them are going back to the well and digging up the graveyard of TOS storylines. (I expect to see Planet of the Tribbles at some point.)

It's fair to be disappointed with where these SF franchises have gone. But I agree fully with Michael that the problems are not female leads or what the 'gaters dismiss as "being woke." Creative bankruptcy isn't a social justice issue.
Back to Top profile | search
Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security


Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 33669
Posted: 17 October 2020 at 2:12am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

 Michael Roberts wrote:
Part of the insidiousness of the current Gamergate/Comicsgate/Star Wars and Trek fan toxicity is that it uses arguments that might be valid as a singular statement to craft a narrative that entertainment is under assault from a culture war and that inclusiveness and progressivism are the enemies of good storytelling.


I can't get behind any of what Greg has posted over the last 2+ years specifically because his lens is myopically attuned through a culture war.  He's sees changes as aggressions, almost movements on a front, and inclusion as an attack.  A female lead "injected" into an otherwise male-dominated franchise can't be anything but SJW (just look to his reactions to DISCOVERY and the recent STAR WARS films) and even easy introductions to questioning the status quo with regard to power classes in Trek is seen as an affront.  Weird, right?  Trek questioned ALL of those things 50 years ago and yet when it does it AGAIN, it's dismissed as "woke" and a product of those with an "agenda".  Wow.  Talk about a betrayal of everything Trek is about.  

I know that you're not advocating that, John, but Greg's language is far from simply bombastic.  There's been a dark undercurrent to it for years.  As someone who spends a lot of time in the gamer space where this is also an issue?  There are red flags all over the place.  
Back to Top profile | search
Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 27676
Posted: 17 October 2020 at 6:34am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

DISCOVERY and the newest STAR WARS trilogy both had a lot of
problems. Having females as the lead was not one of them. (And
Heaven forfend if one of those ladies is also black.)
Back to Top profile | search
Shaun Barry
Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 08 December 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6605
Posted: 17 October 2020 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Again, I always go back to my go-to logic:

There's almost 60 years of DOCTOR WHO series to choose from.

There's 50+ years of STAR TREK shows, movies & books.

There's 40+ years of STAR WARS...

Don't like any of the new stuff?  Just ignore it, enjoy the classics when you want, and move on with your life.  Wasting a bunch of negative energy with internet diatribes will only rot your soul.

Back to Top profile | search
James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 5863
Posted: 17 October 2020 at 5:41pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Things can be good, bad, mediocre, whatever.

Relaunches can be the same. Writing, direction, special effects etc are
all valid points to raise in whether something is good or bad, whether it
succeeds or fails.

The issue is when all of that flows FROM blaming diversity.
Diversity, in & of itself, should never be blamed for the success or
failure of a project. Itís not diversityís fault, it is the executionís fault.

I agree, a bad idea would be replacing all the existing versions of
characters & making them diverse characters. Making the originals
unavailable is not the way to do it.
Adding new characters, & not just diverse cookie cutter versions, is the
way to execute such a plan.

ST:D did not replace existing characters. It created new characters, so
donít complain that it has a female lead that solves all the problems -
she doesnít, others in the crew also do. Yes, she gets the lionís share of
the storylines & glory, but my word man, that has been the way with
male leads for literally decades.
I actually think ST:D has done it right - donít give me no
SJW/woke/whatever complaints you have. If you donít like it, structure
that complaint about plot, direction, production, but not because it has a
woman as a lead.

Star Wars too is not about a woman getting the lead. If it was, we
should be able to level the opposite in the Mandalorian. The sequel
trilogy failed, for me, because the plots were crap. I enjoyed TFA,
although I enjoy it less on repeat watching.
TLJ I hated, which had nothing to do with Rey, but everything to do with
crap plot (a stupid car chase in space, coupled with a non-sensical side
plot to a gambling planet) & the way they treated Luke.
TROS was crap because the plot was all over the place & again, had
nothing to do with Rey per se. She was just mixed up in an overall bad

If you think the prime motivation for the failure is that it had a strong
female lead, that may or may not have been able to surpass a previous
male lead, you have an issue with women. So look in the mirror, & work
that out.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
Brandon Frye
Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 17 November 2004
Posts: 1238
Posted: 17 October 2020 at 10:16pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I'm a bit late to this particular party but how is having a female lead in Star Trek some kind of 'woke/SJW' issue now when it was done 25 years ago with Voyager?

Back to Top profile | search
John Byrne

Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 122068
Posted: 18 October 2020 at 7:12am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Some fans have odd ways of picking the causes they are going to champion. And once they have picked them, they cling tenaciously.

I've seen the "failure" of the original TREK attributed to prejudice against Shatner and Nimoy, both Jewish. Oy!

Back to Top profile | search
Brandon Frye
Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 17 November 2004
Posts: 1238
Posted: 18 October 2020 at 10:32am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Shatner was probably more to blame.. he's Canadian!
Back to Top profile | search

If you wish to post a reply to this topic you must first login
If you are not already registered you must first register

<< Prev Page of 3
  Post Reply | Post New Topic |

Forum Jump

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login

You are currently viewing the MOBILE version of the site.