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John Wickett
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Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 804
Posted: 14 April 2021 at 10:13am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Expert witnesses are unique because they are allowed to offer opinion testimony.  

Obviously, we want expert opinions to be credible, to avoid what Rebecca is talking about, which is an expert who just says whatever the attorney who hired him wants the expert to say. 

Consequently, there is a vetting process.  Prior to testifying, an expert witness must submit a report that is given to the other side during discovery.  

The report contains a lot of information.  First, you will get the expert's  credentials, including their education, professional experience, etc.  Based on this information, an attorney can object to an expert if he feels the expert is not qualified to testify concerning the subject matter the expert is retained to discuss.  If there is an objection, a separate court hearing will take place (usually outside the presence of the jury) to determine whether the expert will be allowed to testify.

Next you have the expert's opinion, which must be very detailed and include all of the evidence the expert considered when forming the opinion, along with the factual and scientific basis for the opinion.  The expert cannot offer testimony that goes beyond the scope of the expert report.  So before the trial, each side already knows exactly what the other side's experts will say, and has the opportunity to rebut the testimony with their own experts.  

Finally, you have information regarding the expert's previous opinions.  The expert report must list any articles or books published by the expert, a list of cases wherein the expert previously testified, which side the expert testified for, and a brief summary of the substance of their prior testimony.  This enables attorneys to mine the experts past opinions for information that contradicts their present testimony, thereby discrediting the expert as a gun for hire, who is willing to say whatever is wanted.

It is true that experts can charge for their time, and they are very expensive (hundreds of dollars per hour).  That is one area in which I agree with Rebecca.  The system is unequal because a wealthy party can afford outstanding expert witnesses (OJ had the best in the business), whereas a poorer defendant might not have any experts.  In criminal cases this disparity usually operates in favor of the state, rather than the defendant.

  


Edited by John Wickett on 14 April 2021 at 10:16am
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Rebecca Jansen
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Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4499
Posted: 14 April 2021 at 11:32am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Long overly dramatic trials which include people whose testimony is skewed toward, if not entirely written by, who pays them, allowing character examination to the nth
degree of victim rather than accused, work perfectly for one group of people while, for over a hundred years, bulldozing over other groups. If a witness like Brodd, who offered his services first to the 'other' side, says what he says for the purpose of serving their employer they should have no place in a court of justice. If this is a joke to say rather than the regularly baffling trial outcomes we see from the U.S., then I see more evidence of another privileged group of do what I say ignore what I do in charge. Don't focus on Canada being any different or better (so I remove some long history I recounted about the black community in Victoria and the many contributions of minorities to building the province and city with many 'firsts' that might surprise), then another brings it right up again!

George Floyd being killed and following to see if his killer gets properly held to account is less risible to some than whatever it is I'm typing that is naive or wrong-headed and must be (and I don't say I don't overly 'splain msyelf) mansplained about? There is a massive problem right now with people in the U.S. being fed obvious disinformation and conspiracies connecting unrelated matters and them absolutely not "understanding" these things as I'm assured I do not... George Floyd's health is barely a connected matter and should have been dealt with by testimony from no more than two informed medically educated witnesses with direct experience of some sort with he or his body. This whole business of his drug use or anything about him other than a person who was reported as having passed a bad $20 bill is totally inappropriate and intentional misleading or confusing of a jury of non-experts. For such an important trial on murder charges to not sequester a jury is also problematic and may invalidate these exhausting (not exhaustive as in thorough) proceedings... and has the record of this particular officer and how many times he was 'let off' from discipline for improper conduct been focused on a tenth as much as trying to make victim Mr. Floyd somehow to blame for his own demise?

I just left another forum late last year, entirely moderated by white males, after being lectured to about a 'no politics anymore' decision there and having to be "more neutral" one time too many (just being friendly supposedly and not responding to any complaint) while the moderators would bring up Justin Trudeau fueled with right wing media attack half-truth misinformation (I didn't even vote for him), or 'like' (they had these things there) violent rhetoric posts by someone who earlier was a zealous defender of Trump. I went from voted best new member and friendliest member, people commenting on how benign and the "least malicious" I usually was, to totally cut off and banned, with some left under the impression the moderators are harder on themselves and report themselves to each other, and that I could even come back (whereas I shut the door and they locked and bolted it permanently immediately).

I am fine with these political or even emotional topics, so long as I can say my piece as others do. I want justice for George Floyd's family and community, and I want a functional United States of America, and these both seem extremely in doubt to say the least recently. This is what I want to write about, putting Canada aside as mostly all I can compare things to, I do respect that something about this rubs the wrong way and is my doing. Your nation has allowed someone entirely unfit for the highest office to run as a major party candidate, more based on fund-raising than any experience in public service (he had none and remains entirely hostile toward such as having any value). This personage appointed more judges federally than possibly any other president, including twice or longer termed presidents, left many other offices empty or filled with equally inappropriate people, and it's going to require a major effort for the current administration to clean up and make repairs from this, which still cannot be complete, so the damage is lasting! Canada has been severely effected in many ways as we are each others' chief trading partners. Some may not be, but that's a case of subjective anecdotes versus larger reality. Suffice to say I have been and am severely effected by what goes on in a country I have not wanted citizenship in while still wanting the best for it. I am dedicated to Canada and it's future and a large part of that lays with the United States. It is my duty to offer a neighbor and partner my honest discourse. If I am found a fool I accept that back, but it will not usually dissuade me from trying to communicate as fully as I'm able.

Again, I genuinely thank this forum for allowing my speech and apologize where what I have to say (as opposed to repeat from some website) antagonizes. I take no great lasting offense even from lectures to me elsewhere here by men about my not taking sexual harassment seriously enough in threads about that, these things can speak for themselves to each reader as to whom is ignorant or insufficiently zealous. I use big words I've been told sometimes and that also can seem overly officious or arrogant; I am an autodidact, mostly self-educated. I do not use language to be obfuscatory, a common critique of politicians and lawyers, I am trying to communicate with the best choices, and I miss the mark sometimes, and I also make typos like anyone which I kick myself about missing like most.

Now I leave this thread and close this door, shutting myself up for having apparently broken some rules and causing upset. It will remain free of me. We will see what is or isn't done to address yet another death of a black citizen of the U.S. where a white one would have had a very different experience to say the least. This is a long-standing massive problem that continues in your country regardless of whether I comment or not, or if Canada faces challenges of it's own (which of course it does). "I wasn't saying we were better than the U.S. as a thing or person or whatever it's supposed to be, I just said what I said and now it's turned into all of this" to misquote John Lennon. I've read others' comments here about this case and found some of them informative. I have written this because I do care and absolutely know that black lives matter very much.

My political or social comments seeming so unwelcome I will endeavor to relegate myself in future to my usually more positive and enthusiastic comic book artform comments. The long overly dramatic, skewed, wordy posts of Rebecca Jansen are over. :^)
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John Wickett
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Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 804
Posted: 14 April 2021 at 12:09pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

"This whole business of his drug use or anything about him other than a person who was reported as having passed a bad $20 bill is totally inappropriate and intentional misleading or confusing of a jury of non-experts."

If the issue of drug use was being introduced to show that Floyd was a bad guy, then I would agree with you 100%. Floyd's character is irrelevant with respect to how this situation was handled by the police.  

The issue is that Floyd had Fentanyl in his system, and at least one doctor stated it was an overdose amount.  

The warning label that comes with a Fentanyl patch says the following (Fentanyl Patch: Uses, Dosage, Side Effects & Warnings - Drugs.com) :

"Fentanyl can slow or stop your breathing...Fatal side effects can occur if you use this medicine with alcohol, or with other drugs that can cause drowsiness or slow your breathing."

On the videotape, Floyd is heard complaining that he can't breathe even before he is placed in the police car.  Some have opined that he was already in the beginning stages of a fatal drug overdose.

Whether you agree with this argument or not, I don't understand how you can possibly say the defense is not entitled to raise it, or that the information is irrelevant.  It relates directly to the cause of death.  

Here is the problem for Chauvin as I see it:  If its wrong to kneel on the neck of a healthy person for 9+ minutes (which I believe has been well established), then it is even more wrong to kneel on the neck of a person who is already experiencing respiratory problems, which Floyd clearly was.  No matter which experts you find more persuasive, it doesn't change the fact that the police response was wrong; criminally wrong in my opinion.  So I feel that the jury will see through this and Chauvin will be convicted.  

Some of the things that you say are confusing, or that seem to have no purpose will be given context and pulled together into a coherent narrative during closing arguments.


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John Wickett
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Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 804
Posted: 20 April 2021 at 2:04pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Hopefully we'll get a verdict today, before the media and politicians on both sides have time to create an even bigger circus.

After looking at all the evidence, and listening to the arguments, here are my thoughts:

Second Degree Murder
Minnesota has two types of second degree murder; intentional and unintentional. 

I don't think the state proved that Chauvin intended to kill Mr. Floyd.  

In order to convict Chauvin of unintentional second degree murder, the state would have to show that Chauvin "caused the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense...with force or violence."

In this case, the underlying felony would be aggravated assault, which is an assault that results in a serious injury.  That certainly fits the circumstances of the case.  However, in Minnesota aggravated assault is a specific intent crime, meaning that to be guilty, Chauvin must have intended to cause serious injuries to Mr. Floyd.  

I think a reasonable argument could be made that Chauvin did intend to injure Mr. Floyd.  For me, the key piece of evidence is the segment of video where the other officers suggest that they should get off Floyd's back and roll him onto his side, but Chauvin refused.

However, I don't think that is enough to prove intent beyond a reasonable doubt.  So I would have to acquit.

Third Degree Murder
According to the statute, "Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree."

Courts have expounded upon he definition of a "depraved mind" and opined that the killing "must have been committed in a reckless or wanton manner with the knowledge that someone may be killed and with a heedless disregard of that happening"

So here there are a couple of key questions:

First, did Chauvin know that his actions could result in death?  Based on Chauvin's training about excessive force, I think he clearly should have known

Second, with the knowledge of the risk to Mr. Floyd, did he proceed in a manner that was wanton or reckless?--a manner that showed disregard for what was happening to Mr. Floyd?  

In my opinion, the answer to all of the above is yes.  So I would vote to convict.  

Second degree manslaughter
Per the statute, "A person who causes the death of another...by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another"

This one's even more clear IMO.  Chauvin can be convicted even if he did not consciously risk Mr. Floyd's death.  He only has to be aware that his actions could cause great bodily harm.  Since it is evident the other officers perceived this risk, and the bystanders perceived this risk, Chauvin, as the most highly trained person on the scene, should also have known the risk; especially as Floyd's symptoms progressed. 

I would convict.  


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John Wickett
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Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 804
Posted: 20 April 2021 at 3:17pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Great job by the jury, and good to see that the system worked the way it was supposed to.
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Eric Sofer
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Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
Posted: 20 April 2021 at 5:03pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/derek-chauvin-trial-04-20-2 1/index.html

He was found guilty of second and third degree murder and second degree manslaughter. Justice has prevailed.

It is a shame that it ever came to this. But it sets a precedent that may make black lives safer in this country. Let us hope that A) this begins a resolution of this damned catastrophe and B) these killers realize WHY black lives matter.
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Brian Miller
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Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 30886
Posted: 20 April 2021 at 5:18pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I wonder how long the appeals will take.

I wonder, if he is sentenced and does serve jail time, how long it’ll be
before he’s killed.
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Neil Lindholm
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Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: China
Posts: 4940
Posted: 20 April 2021 at 5:30pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Will there be an appeal opportunity citing government interference? I read that President Biden has been publicly stating the outcome he would like to see, which seems very improper for a government official to do. Same thing happened in Canada when not only did the Prime Minister jump in to a court case, they actually changed the law in order for future court cases to have the desired outcome. 
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Rebecca Jansen
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Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4499
Posted: 20 April 2021 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

One last post on this. I'm very happy for the U.S. that this one was gotten right, credit to the twelve citizens of the jury, and despite all the 'large black male criminal on drugs with heart damage' type attacks. The fact that people of all sorts were praying for an intelligent result shows how many had no idea what the outcome would be. It was ultimately more the unprecedented multiple sources and viewpoints audio-visual documentation that had greater weight than the extensive and deliberately confusing testimonies allowed.

This really is great news! :^) I can't image the harm something less would've enabled. I am thankful to have been wrong in my worst fears.
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John Wickett
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Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 804
Posted: 20 April 2021 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

"I wonder, if he is sentenced and does serve jail time, how long it’ll be
before he’s killed."

He starts serving jail time today.  Sentencing will be in 8 weeks.  

I think he'll be safe in prison.  In Nevada, convicted offenders the state knows will be targeted by other inmates (ex cops, child sex offenders, people who have left gangs and testified against other gang members, celebrities, etc) are often sent to a separate facility.  

When I was working for the Innocence Project, our client was convicted of a heinous sex offense against a child.  He was shipped out of Vegas to the Lovelock Correctional Facility in northern Nevada for his own safety. When we went to see him, I remember seeing OJ Simpson in the yard.

I've heard that most other states do the same thing with convicts in high profile cases like this, to protect them.  
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John Wickett
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Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 804
Posted: 20 April 2021 at 5:56pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

"Will there be an appeal opportunity citing government interference?"

Yes.  The defense moved for a mistrial, based on the theory that Maxine Waters' comments could have prejudiced he jury.  The judge denied the motion, but acknowledged it could be grounds for an appeal.

Biden deliberately (and smartly) waited until jurors were sequestered, so his comments would not influence them. 

I don't see this going anywhere.  A successful appeal would not mean Chauvin gets acquitted.  It would result in the first trial being declared a mistrial, and a new trial being held.  But where would you do that?  There has been extensive nationwide media coverage of this case, so you'd be hard pressed to find a jury pool that is untainted from the defense point of view.  There's no reason to believe that a jury in another state would be more impartial than the jury in Minnesota was.
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Paul Gibney
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Joined: 17 April 2004
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Posted: 20 April 2021 at 6:24pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

 Brian Miller wrote:
I wonder, if he is sentenced and does serve jail
time, how long it’ll be before he’s killed.

I have to believe he will be safer in jail than he would’ve been out of it.
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