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Rebecca Jansen
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Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 1984
Posted: 08 June 2020 at 11:43pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

If you are talking about the black experience you listen to actual black people, if you are talking about women's experience you listen to women. Is there some white man saying hey, my opinion about black or women's experiences is important... well, shouldn't it go without having to say that no, not really it isn't, it's entirely beside the point, and definitely not at all of any import if it's coming from ignorance. Then again, I have no clue why people want to be so involved in all these women's and their doctors and families' decision making ability and access in terms of abortion. Maybe it's part of what psychology terms projection? They hit the roof if someone were to impose anything on them, but see nothing in imposing simplistic ideas born of ignorance in areas they have no business involving themselves in. The people directly involved speak and others listen, the people directly involved say what they want, not you say what you want for them in your fantasy based version of how things 'should be'.

Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 08 June 2020 at 11:45pm
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Andy Mokler
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Joined: 20 January 2006
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Posted: 08 June 2020 at 11:55pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

If you are talking about the black experience you listen to actual black people

That isn't good enough, though.  I posted two different perspectives by black people.  There are many more lectures by black professors on their own channels, speaking at Harvard, etc.  All denouncing systemic racism.  I'm not simply using my relatively isolated existence as a gauge for the rest of the world.

I've also looked at the media coverage and propagation.  That also adds to the false narrative.  I mean, it seems the irony is lost that in a nation that is supposedly so terrible and foundationally oppressive toward black people that you have multi-millionaire black people speaking about how bad things are?

I've heard various lectures from professors who talk about the black community needing to redirect it's energy into facing their own shortcomings instead of looking to blame outside forces.  Even Denzel Washington said something along those lines.

Black on black crime.  Fatherless homes.  Crime.  Drugs.  All of these things are much bigger problems than a supposed systemic problem with the police specifically targeting blacks.  The issues with the police simply are not targeted toward blacks.  The police have issues that they need to continually strive to better.  But the numbers just don't show a predisposition to single out blacks.  White men, statistically, are far more likely to be shot by a cop than black men.

We all need to stop falling for media propaganda and mob mentality.


Edited by Andy Mokler on 08 June 2020 at 11:55pm
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Matt Reed
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posted: 08 June 2020 at 11:57pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

 John Byrne wrote:
Do people think criminals are going to switch to the honor system?

This is a falsehood.  This is not the point.  Defunding the police does not equate to disbanding the police.  Far from it.  It means redistributing means of contact that the police are far from educated in reacting to and reallocating it to other people and organizations that can more adequately accommodate their needs.  

Right now, a police officer is supposed to be a social worker, a homeless advocate, a dog catcher, a fireworks enforcer, a mental health advocate, a child care servicer (among many, MANY other things) AS WELL AS BEING someone who simply keeps the peace and is trained to track down dangerous, career criminals or those that would otherwise rise to the level of a threat to the general community.  Their "job duties" are so broad and so expansive as to include so many things outside their normal purview as to be absurd.  

To think that "defunding" the police would give rise to criminals thinking they have a pass or otherwise are going to go on "the honor system" is, to me, a fundamental problem with the notion of police as an institution in general.  The police force is given too broad a latitude and far too much responsibility for things they are neither equipped nor trained to handle and, realistically, shouldn't be in charge of in the first place.  

What is the push back, really, to the police handling violent crimes and career criminals (which defunding would certainly still keep in place) and then having social workers, citizen groups and others dealing with less violent calls that don't need armed officers, a SWAT team and a Humvee to deal with?  Tell me the bad there.
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Matt Reed
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posted: 09 June 2020 at 12:10am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

 Andy Mokler wrote:
If there are truly hundreds or thousands of examples of innocent bystanders being targeted and harassed and abused by the police, I haven't seen them.  I've seen handfuls of videos that are rarely an innocent person minding their own business.

1,000 people a year, on average, are killed by police.  

1,000. 

For your argument to hold true, 3/4 of them deserved it and the other 1/4 were sorry circumstances.

That's decidedly not the case. I know you won't give this link much credit, Andy, because it comes from the MSM but fuck it.  I don't care.  Link So, with no regret, I say fuck you.  
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Andy Mokler
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Posted: 09 June 2020 at 12:16am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

How many SWAT teams are sent out on non-violent calls?

Who determines whether or not a call is (potentially)non-violent?  

I think it's far better to send someone out who can handle things if they go bad than to risk social workers in the field.  IMO, there needs to be some level of fear when dealing with an authority figure.  The general public has shown that they certainly don't respect authority far too often.

And it's not like there aren't specialists in place to handle specific cases once their potential threat level has been established.  It's not like police offers are giving counselling on the side of the road or prescribing meds.  They are there to make sure that everyone else is safe first and then to delegate where the troubled person should go for help.

I don't see anything problematic about that. 
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Michael Roberts
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Joined: 20 April 2004
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Posted: 09 June 2020 at 12:19am | IP Logged | 6 post reply


 QUOTE:
And yes, to suggest that I can't see something because of the color of my skin is racist.

NO. IT. IS. FUCKING. NOT.

If there is one thing to take away from the entire conversation, it's that how assholish and racist this comment is.


 QUOTE:
There are anecdotal examples on both sides of the conversation so I don't know how reliable or useful those examples are.

Exactly! YOU DON'T KNOW. Meanwhile, people of color have been dealing with these issues for decades, talking with one another, all identifying with similar experiences despite generational, geographic, and class divides. That you'll pick out two black voices that feed into the confirmation bias of white people and say, "Well, I don't know which of these examples is useful" is proving the point that you can't see something.

You know how I know privilege exists? Because when I speak to my experience as a POC with other POC, they will know exactly what I'm talking about, they'll throw in their own similar experiences, we can discuss the historical nature of the issue. When I try to speak to my experience as a POC to white people? "Oh, you just see racism everywhere." "No, you are just falling for media propaganda." "No, that's just political correctness." "No, that's happened to me once, that's not a racial thing." "No, that's just false outrage." "No, I never experienced that, so it can't be true."

We are constantly being told by people not in our position that our experiences are not valid. That they don't see what we are seeing. So you want to deny our experiences and then claim victimhood for asking if you are in a position to see them? FUCK THAT.
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Jim Burdo
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Joined: 19 April 2020
Location: United States
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Posted: 09 June 2020 at 12:23am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

This is being supported by mostly white celebrities who can afford private security. They change their minds when their own neighborhoods are attacked, like Chris Palmer. "Get these animals TF out of my neighborhood."

The NRA is turning cartwheels, because progressives are starting to buy guns. They're also getting annoyed at waiting periods.


Police don't get tanks or artillery. They still have to use civilian weapons. Often surplus military items are office equipment.
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Andy Mokler
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Joined: 20 January 2006
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Posted: 09 June 2020 at 12:25am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

That's decidedly not the case. I know you won't give this link much credit, Andy, because it comes from the MSM but fuck it.  I don't care.  Link So, with no regret, I say fuck you.  

And, according to the Post's statistic's, more than 4/5 of those shot and killed had a knife or a gun.  

351 unarmed people since 2015.  Not insignificant but that's out of approximately 50 MILLION arrests in that time span.  I think anyone with a little perspective would see that there is far more good being done than bad.

So, fuck you.  ;)
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security

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Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posted: 09 June 2020 at 12:28am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

So...what's your point, Jim? Just lay it out plainly for us.
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Michael Roberts
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Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 13258
Posted: 09 June 2020 at 12:28am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Just one example where police are failing and should not be first responders:


Should the police be involved? Of course. When an assailant is identified, they can build a case and arrest the person. But dealing with taking the victim statements? Making sure that the rape kit is processed? Helping the victim get counseling? The police suck at that, and someone trained to deal with that would better serve society.
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Andy Mokler
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Joined: 20 January 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2759
Posted: 09 June 2020 at 12:30am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

We are constantly being told by people not in our position that our experiences are not valid. That they don't see what we are seeing. So you want to deny our experiences and then claim victimhood for asking if you are in a position to see them? FUCK THAT.

No, I didn't say your experience was invalid.  I said the numbers don't support the narrative and that I have watched many different black people who have made a study of the situation and they have denounced it.  You say listen to black people and I have tried to do that.  The white newspeople like to talk about it but there are a lot of black voices that don't agree.

I admit, I am going with studies and statistics when trying to formulate my opinion.  Feelings are too visceral and emotional for me to rely on.


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Michael Roberts
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Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 13258
Posted: 09 June 2020 at 12:33am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

This is being supported by mostly white celebrities who can afford private security. They change their minds when their own neighborhoods are attacked, like Chris Palmer. "Get these animals TF out of my neighborhood."

The NRA is turning cartwheels, because progressives are starting to buy guns. They're also getting annoyed at waiting periods.

------

I know people who live in Santa Monica where they were some rioting and looting. They were in front of their homes, willing to defend them. A business got looted. Yet they are still posting Black Lives Matters and Defund the Police. Because they understand the status quo is broken, and something different needs to be done.
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