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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 13 August 2020 at 11:26am | IP Logged | 1
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Something I pointed out during my tenure on FF was that Lee and Kirby originally had the FF trying to reach the STARS. We still haven’t done that!
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 13 August 2020 at 4:35pm | IP Logged | 2
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And when Marvel had the events of 9/11 intrude into a Spider-Man comic, it was an insult to all involved. Men and women searching for life one body at a time may not have felt cheerful reading about the Hulk and the Thing lifting tons of rubble at a time. Or Thor or Storm calling down rain to clear the dust. Or Dr. Doom watching and shedding an un-Doomlike tear. The man's got a time machine, for heaven's sake! He could STOP 9/11! (Another element that I'm sure wouldn't have been warmly received.)
Did it happen? Yes. Was there a way to homage it? Sure... both DC and Marvel had tribute books. Otherwise, simply stop showing the Twin Towers in the comics.
When real life intrudes into comics, I'm not so sure how reassuring or comforting that is. It worked to raise spirits and buy war bonds during WW2, but after that... too much controversy, I believe.
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Adam Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 July 2017
Posts: 1717
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| Posted: 13 August 2020 at 5:52pm | IP Logged | 3
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I'm in favor of obliquely referring to current events in order to make fun of them, if nothing else. That's about it.
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Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4178
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| Posted: 13 August 2020 at 6:03pm | IP Logged | 4
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Eric Sofer wrote:
| And when Marvel had the events of 9/11 intrude into a Spider-Man comic, it was an insult to all involved. |
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But... but... the symbolism!
QUOTE:
| When real life intrudes into comics, I'm not so sure how reassuring or comforting that is. It worked to raise spirits and buy war bonds during WW2, but after that... too much controversy, I believe. |
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I guess it depends on how it's done. "Let's get those Nazis!" lends itself pretty easily to superheroes. I don't recall any stories of that era that delved into the lives lost and traumas suffered at Pearl Harbor. If anything, it would've been one panel of the attack, one of a survivor going "Those sneaky animals!", and then on from there.
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Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4178
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| Posted: 13 August 2020 at 6:05pm | IP Logged | 5
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Peter Hicks wrote:
| Dan DiDio said in retrospect, the New 52 started out strong, but a year into it, there were no further ideas to keep it going. |
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That’s because they played all of their cards in the first hand. Opening with Justice League, which should have been a Year Two project at the earliest, was extremely foolish. Along those lines, their desire to have their cake and eat it too meant that characters who should have been taken time (years?) to get to (basically all of the Superman, Batman and Green Lantern spin-offs, all Robins current and former, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, etc.) were all there from Day One. If you’re going to flush everything and start over, flush everything and start over. Then build up to things.
It would’ve helped if DC had gotten over their “52” fetish. I get wanting to do it all at once, but call it “the New DCU” and start smaller. 24 tops. Give people opportunities to sample and decide which of the first batch they want to stick with before you start rolling out the next batch. One/two a month tops – make each new book an event.
I also think they missed an opportunity with the “departing” DCU by doing the reboot so abruptly. You had that whole Mayan calendar 2012 “end of days” stuff at the time, so use the tail end of 2011 and 2012 to give the outgoing books a proper wrap-up. Let Morrison finish his Batman run, Johns finish his Green Lantern run and warn Levitz the Legion’s going away so you wouldn’t have those carrying over into the rebooted books. While that’s going, do the hard work of building up the new versions you want to bring forth.
(This moment in armchair quarterbacking brought to you by…)
QUOTE:
| And I thought “That is the truth behind EVERY reboot of the DC Universe that DiDio oversaw!” |
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True enough. It’s the downside to making everyone march to the same drum at the same time: Invariably, some would benefit, some would be mildly inconvenienced and others would be completely derailed.
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Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4178
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| Posted: 13 August 2020 at 6:07pm | IP Logged | 6
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Back to the main topic, it’s worth pointing out that this wasn’t a “DC bloodbath.” It was a “Warner Brothers bloodbath.” All kinds of folks in all kinds of divisions took a big hit. So there’s no indication they’re getting ready to bail out of comics. Not saying they aren’t; just that a mass round of layoffs that includes DC personnel isn’t the same thing as “gutting DC”.
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2292
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| Posted: 13 August 2020 at 6:30pm | IP Logged | 7
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...unless there is some way to dodge the long term consequences, as with Captain America or Namor...________________
Captain America being frozen for 50 years instead of 20 doesn't really hurt anything or change anything of too much importance. Just no more adult bystanders who think "I remember him from when I was a kid!"
But what about Namor? Where were we left with him? In original continuity, he was a homeless amnesiac for just a few years, right? He had adventures in the mid-50's and then he shows up in 1962 without his memory. Now, was he an amnesiac for 55 years?! Losing a few years of your life is totally different than losing more than HALF your life!
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 14 August 2020 at 1:09pm | IP Logged | 8
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Dave P. - I believe that DC's reasoning in the nature of the Pu52 was, "We have to hit 'em with everything good right away, so they'll be used to buying everything from the get-go!" This works only if there is better material following up. Or as our friend Mr. Byrne constantly reiterates... "What do we do next?" This was a first album, with all the good songs on it, and nobody gave a thought to the second album - which was junk.
And let's not even consider what happened to the JSA and All St*r Squadron. "We fought in World War II" is a death knell without a relevant way to explain survival in to the first half of the 21st century. Captain America used up one good way. The JSA, battling Ragnarok forever, was one BAD way. A few characters (e.g., Robotman, Dr. Fate, the Spectre) could explain the longevity in the nature of their characters. But mostly... leave direct references to history out. Or suffer a crappy resolution to the explanation.
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Paul Kimball
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2166
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| Posted: 14 August 2020 at 1:19pm | IP Logged | 9
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But what about Namor? Where were we left with him? In original continuity,
he was a homeless amnesiac for just a few years, right? He had adventures in
the mid-50's and then he shows up in 1962 without his memory. Now, was he
an amnesiac for 55 years?!
++++++
Eric you raise a great point, I've actually never though about it before, I just
think"he had a long period of amnesia"
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Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17669
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| Posted: 14 August 2020 at 3:36pm | IP Logged | 10
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QUOTE:
| I just think "he had a long period of amnesia" |
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Exactly.
I tend to think of comic book time in measurements like "a short time ago," "some time ago," and "a long time ago."
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Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4178
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| Posted: 14 August 2020 at 4:01pm | IP Logged | 11
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Eric Sofer wrote:
| Dave P. - I believe that DC's reasoning in the nature of the Pu52 was, "We have to hit 'em with everything good right away, so they'll be used to buying everything from the get-go!" |
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Pretty much. It's a risky bet to cut your line in half or more and rely on greater sales per book to make up the difference in income. Not too risky necessarily since you'd have a concurrent reduction in production costs, but still...
I've also come to feel that the "scary part" of starting a new book isn't however many were published in the past, but rather how many are published with the same characters this month. For Batman fans, the New 52 month 1 had: Batgirl, Batman, Batman & Robin, Batman - The Dark Knight, Batwing, Batwoman, Detective Comics, Nightwing, Red Hood & the Outlaws, Justice League, Teen Titans and Suicide Squad (Harley Quinn). Shiny new #1 or not, is that really more accessible to someone who doesn't want to spend all of their disposable income on one character/"family"? (And it didn't take too long for Batman, Inc. to join them.)
QUOTE:
| This works only if there is better material following up. Or as our friend Mr. Byrne constantly reiterates... "What do we do next?" This was a first album, with all the good songs on it, and nobody gave a thought to the second album - which was junk. |
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It occurs to me they still could've had their "New 52," just start small and build up to it over a while. I'll admit to having some fun back then guessing which books would make the cut (didn't translate to buying too many of them, mind you) - space it out and instead of month(?) long guessing game you have a year or more.
QUOTE:
| And let's not even consider what happened to the JSA and All St*r Squadron. "We fought in World War II" is a death knell without a relevant way to explain survival in to the first half of the 21st century. |
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The problem with not having a "Good War" to tie them to in the interim. "Forged in the fires of Vietnam" (or I guess the Gulf War by now) creates a very different mental image.
QUOTE:
| Captain America used up one good way. The JSA, battling Ragnarok forever, was one BAD way. |
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That only got them from "five years ago" to "two years ago." What kept them young was irradiation by Ian Karkull in All-Star Squadron Annual #3. (Jay Garrick also gets the Speed Force and, I think, the Post-Crisis Flash of Two Worlds had Keystone City in a timeless limbo for awhile.) The trickier part is more about how their kids stay so young. The Original Thorn would have been like 70 when she Jade and Obsidian. Same with Black Canary I and Black Canary II. (Note this is all pre-New 52; I don't know which characters are still around and what their new backgrounds may be.)
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Eric Smearman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 5798
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| Posted: 14 August 2020 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | 12
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I've been saying for awhile that, if DC wants to keep the
JSA tied to WW2 (Which I support), they need to
retroactively introduce something that takes them out of
the DCU timeline from after the HUAC hearings (where they
refused to unmask and declared their retirement) and brings
them back, say, around the time that the Justice League
forms. Maybe that Limbo/Ragnarok Loop that Roy Thomas put
the JSA in after CRISIS can be reinserted in the fifties to
"a few years ago" giving us senior JSAers in their mid-40s
to early 50s instead of their 90s or older.
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