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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6184
Posted: 09 February 2021 at 2:15pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

The ugly American - that is a very apt title, & is something I have seen
quite a bit of in my travels over that couple of decades.

America does a lot for the world, but there is a section, & I understand it
is a section, but it does your country no credit, who act with complete
non-self awareness.

As an example, a large group, in a foreign airport. Running through the
airport, shouting @ the top of their voices USA! USA! USA! Does not
look good. I have witnessed this on more than one occasion.

Just as the hobbyist Brits who travel to Europe in the summer, getting
drunk & destroying holiday towns do not do the UK any favours either.
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Marc Baptiste
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3530
Posted: 09 February 2021 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I am 49, so I would have been sweet 16 when his best-selling TRUMP: THE ART OF THE DEAL came out and really introduced him to mainstream America.  So, I was in the thick of it and do remember well, that he really became a bigger than life character in the mythos of Americana/pop-culture.

I admit I fell hook, line and sinker for the ingeniously marketed image of him as a "brilliant businessman" and a "multi-billionaire."  Even in movies and sitcoms "DONALD TRUMP" became the go to shorthand for anything signifying RICH.  Sadly, this image would survive the 80's and last a few decades.

What confounds me is that he proved completely immune to the phenomenon so common in the United States - that being, that Americans LOVE tearing down that which they have a hand in building up.  On the contrary, this country (an ELECTORAL majority) goes and makes him President of the United States!!!!

Marc










Edited by Marc Baptiste on 09 February 2021 at 4:17pm
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Steven Brake
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 01 January 2016
Posts: 386
Posted: 09 February 2021 at 4:31pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

If you're going to shoot the king don't miss - and I suppose the same is true of former Presidents.

Will impeachment backfire? 

If Trump isn't found guilty, his supporters will claim it as total vindication, and he'll be able to run for President again.

If he is found guilty, and barred from being able to run for President again, presumably he, and/or his supporters will describe it as proof of the corruption of "the swamp" or "the Deep State". He may not be able to run again, but his successor, whoever he or she may be, will then run on a similarly, but even more rabid, populist/anti-Establishment platform.


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Phil Frances
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 08 August 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 232
Posted: 09 February 2021 at 4:47pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I'm not sure humiliation can occur without there being some measure of humility - and Trump exhibits absolutely none of that, as far as I can see. The guy's an absolute reptile whose long-overdue comeuppance is still pending - yet despite all of the **** he's talked and pulled, particularly over the last four years, it seems he'll continue to get away with it.

It must take an extraordinary personality to be able to quite so readily dismiss the revulsion of millions and still come out believing they're in the right. And I don't mean extraordinary in any good sort of way there.
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Marc Baptiste
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3530
Posted: 09 February 2021 at 4:50pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Steven,

Although I do believe that it is constitutional for the Senate to try FORMER officials who have been impeached - I believe the wisest course of action for the Senate would have been to adjourn the trial indefinitely (sine die) or dismiss the trial WITHOUT prejudice.  

I feel this way because as it stands, 44 Senate Republicans have already voted on the record that they believe the entire trial of a former official is UNCONSTITUTIONAL, therefore they WILL vote to acquit and cannot be counted on to be impartial jurors.  That makes this trial a show trial that as a foregone conclusion will end with the Chair declaring Donald J. Trump NOT guilty.  As you said, he and his supporters will no doubt shout to the ends of the earth that this was a total vindication.

If they were to have adjourned without trying him or dismissed without prejudice - then this thing would have hung over his head like an albatross for the rest of his days.

Unfortunately, Majority Leader Schumer and the bulk of the Democrats had red meat they needed to deliver to the far left wing of the party and so a quick, predetermined trial HAD to be held.

Marc


Edited by Marc Baptiste on 09 February 2021 at 7:24pm
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Steven Brake
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 01 January 2016
Posts: 386
Posted: 09 February 2021 at 4:59pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Marc: A very lucid reply, thanks!

I foresee Trump i) being found not guilty, and then ii) claiming this as total vindication. And iii)  possibly founding a new party, and running for office again.

I ought to add that I predicted a narrow victory for Trump in the last election! :)
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12559
Posted: 09 February 2021 at 8:01pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Trump is to America as Rasputin was to Russia's last tsar. Nobody in Russia could figure out why Rasputin, a truly sketchy character, had such great influence over the tsar and his tsarina (their son's hemophilia was a state secret). While Tsar Nicholas was off fighting the Great War, Rasputin was going so far as to decide which government ministers to fire and hire. Everyone thought that if he was "taken out of the picture", the royal family would make better decisions and allow the country to pull through. But only step one happened. Rasputin's death didn't make things better. As it turned out it was Nicholas who was making the bad decisions, and kept on making them, ultimately leading the to Russian Revolution. 

Democrats and some Republicans are focused on neutralizing Trump politically. But he's only the symptom of far greater, deeper problems. 


Edited by Joe Zhang on 09 February 2021 at 8:05pm
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security

Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 33912
Posted: 09 February 2021 at 11:59pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

 Joe Zhang wrote:
Democrats and some Republicans are focused on neutralizing Trump politically. But he's only the symptom of far greater, deeper problems.

Given recent gaslighting posts by Joe, I know it will come as a shock that I actually agree with him here.  

I think it's vitally important to hold Trump accountable for his actions.  Whether they took place in office on Day 1 or Day 1,400, a president should always be accountable to those for whom they serve.  As was so aptly expressed today by Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-MD) when he said about Trump's defense "Their argument is that if you commit an impeachable offense in your last few weeks in office, you do it with constitutional impunity."

That said, yes, the rot is deep and Trump is just a symptom.  As much as some want to believe that if Trump is just held out of office and is continued to be curtailed then this all goes away, they are fooling themselves.  Those people are turning a blind eye to decades of rot that started as a germ as the Southern Strategy under Nixon to Reagan's "State's Rights" speech in Mississippi and the wooing of the Moral Majority in the 80s. Add in a sprinkle of Iran-Contra, Reagan's non-reaction to AIDS and overreaction to immigration coupled with a hefty dose of the rapid ascendancy of FOX News in the 90s as well as the Gingrich/Rove/Boehner trifecta (plus a lot more that I'm forgetting at the moment) and that is a direct line to Trump, Mitch McConnell, Stephen Miller, Jared Kushner, the wall, immigration that resulted in kids in cages and the separation of children (500+ of which have yet to be reunited with their families after two+ years), conservative judges, Charlottesville, tax cuts that only benefit the 1%, George Floyd and COVID.

Tip of the iceberg.  

This Republican Party is one of their own making.  They've been working at it for my entire lifetime and its culmination is Trump.  He is most certainly a symptom but he is not the disease.  

**I will add that I understand that these are systemic issues with America as a whole and they've been going on for far longer than the late 60s. Not to say this ignores the very real fact that "everything old is new again" so to speak.  These same issues with these same players (different people in similar roles) have played itself out throughout American history and across all parties.  That's the true rot.  
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John Byrne

Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 123892
Posted: 11 February 2021 at 9:59am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Hey--if the Republicans acquit him, as they certainly will, will Trump be protected by double jeopardy?

Could a civil case be made against him, a la O.J.?

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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4570
Posted: 11 February 2021 at 10:17am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Mr. Byrne - I'm no lawyer, but I think that not only is this a different crime from the first impeachment, but he left so many dead bodies in his wake that he could be brought up on any of dozens of charges.

And to make a wretched point, the government could pull a DC vs Fawcett on him and force him, in the end, to get a public defender - all he can afford.

Then again, watching the current impeachment trial... I dunno if he could do a lot worse.
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John Byrne

Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 123892
Posted: 11 February 2021 at 10:25am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Im not talking about the second impeachment falling under double jeopardy rules.
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 11249
Posted: 11 February 2021 at 10:41am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Article I, Section 3, Clause7 of the Constitution states:

Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further thanto removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy anyOffice of honor, Trust, or Profit under the United States: but theParty convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment, and Punishment, according to Law.

The Constitution itself expressly authorizes indictment and trial of officials whohave been impeached and convicted. The clause is ambiguous when it comes to officials who have been impeachedand not convicted. Some commentators have argued that the reference to "theParty convicted" implies that the exception to the double jeopardy principle created by the clause does not extend to parties who are impeached but not convicted.

No certainty here...
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