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Phil Frances
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 08 August 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 232
Posted: 12 February 2021 at 7:30pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

 I find it much more interesting to talk to intelligent people who have different, and sometimes opposing points of view; especially if they are better informed than I am, and there is an opportunity for me to learn something from the interaction.
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Thank you, John - I for one appreciate your candour and eloquence. I aspire to an open mindset myself, although I regularly fall short of applying it, I'm sure.

In the end, we're all here for such a fleeting amount of time - why wouldn't I try to reach out as far as I can in the moments available to better my understanding of - well, just about everything ?


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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5102
Posted: 12 February 2021 at 10:31pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

John: Article 1 says "the Senate shall have the sole power to try all impeachments." So the word "all" is being used here to exclude other bodies like the house from exercising this power. Its not discussing the circumstances under which it is appropriate for the senate to exercise its jurisdiction.

If it were appropriate to try a formal official, where would you draw the line. In your view, if we suddenly discovered tomorrow that Barack Obama committed a crime while in office, would it be appropriate for congress to impeach him today (so we could ensure that he'd never run for public office again)? That seems like a very gratuitous exercise of power that is inconsistent with the founders' view of a very limited government.

**

That conclusion is false and obviously false. The notion of "appropriate" use is inherently at the discretion of the body with the sole power.

The founders view of limited government meant leaving many powers to be determined by the character of the elected officials. The Pardon-power of the Executive for example.

The Senate can decide if it has the duty to try a former official. End of story.

Discussing this is to imply that Trump's incitement of a murderous mob and directing them to march on the Capitol building to stop the steal might just not meet this fake standard you are trying to invent.

Disgusting.

Your claim to be musing philosophically is typical of the see-nothing do-nothing GOP which has let this monster drag our government to its knees.

I'm offended as an American by the idea anyone would suggest letting the man responsible for this rampage go unpunished.

I am enraged by conservative Senators signalling their intention to ensure this happens.

To find someone as obviously intelligent as you waxing on about how this might just be what the framers intended makes me mad and I am sorry to see it.
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 2632
Posted: 13 February 2021 at 12:42am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

The Impeachment started in congress while Trump was still in office before moving on to the senate. This trial is simply part of the process that began while he was in office openly inciting violence with deliberate misinformation and scapegoating even his own VP among others.

Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 13 February 2021 at 12:44am
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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 184
Posted: 13 February 2021 at 3:39pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I read the case, and some of the excellent information provided by Michael Penn.  You've convinced me.  I think the trial was constitutional, but I disagree with Mark Haslett that you could impeach a president after he leaves office.  The key thing for me here is that the house filed the articles while he was still President of the United States. 

"Your claim to be musing philosophically is typical of the see-nothing do-nothing GOP which has let this monster drag our government to its knees."

Mark, I didn't make that claim.  These are real procedural questions that I think are important to ask.  I agree that the senate can decide whether it has the authority to conduct a trial, but I don't see a problem with pondering whether the decision they make is the correct one.  Government should be questioned.

"I'm offended as an American by the idea anyone would suggest letting the man responsible for this rampage go unpunished."

I didn't suggest that.  I questioned whether impeachment was the appropriate punishment as opposed to charging him with a crime.

I see that the senate has just acquitted Trump, so now the discussion will inevitably turn to whether that was the right thing to do.

Personally, I'm undecided.  I recorded all of the hearings, but haven't had a chance to see them yet.  I was able to catch a little bit of the opening statements from both sides at work, and based on those here are my initial impressions:

In order to convict Trump for inciting a resurrection I would want to see evidence that directly linked Trump's actions or words to the violence that occurred.  Dems may have done that (I plan to watch the hearings this weekend to see for myself), but I think it was an uphill battle for them, because in the Jan 6 speech, Trump expressly stated that people should protest "peacefully" and I think there is some evidence that the riot was pre planned.  For example, I saw video of people using ropes and grappling hooks to scale one of the walls at the capital.  So I'd go into this leaning towards acquittal.

Since we've concluded that a president can be impeached for gross malfeasance, I'm surprised that this was the only article of impeachment presented by the trial managers.

Trump undermined confidence in the election by repeating false statements about election fraud long after those statements were proven false.  Furthermore, there are recorded phone calls to state election officials in some of the swing states where he tried to upend the results of the election, and in one case asked the secretary of state to "find votes."

I think there should have been an article of impeachment related to those acts, and if there had been, I would have been inclined to vote in favor of convicting him.


Edited by John Wickett on 13 February 2021 at 3:42pm
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Marc Baptiste
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3530
Posted: 13 February 2021 at 3:45pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

John,

Seems many of us are lining up in agreement on that point - I also think while the trial of a former is official is constitutional, I too believe the the IMPEACHMENT of a former official would not be.

Marc
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 28198
Posted: 13 February 2021 at 3:47pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Fucking pussies.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 13759
Posted: 13 February 2021 at 4:07pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Seems many of us are lining up in agreement on that point - I also think while the trial of a former is official is constitutional, I too believe the the IMPEACHMENT of a former official would not be.


If you take an originalist perspective, impeachment of former officials was the norm when the Constitution was written and would have been the framework the Founders were using. 
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 13759
Posted: 13 February 2021 at 4:08pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Did Mitch McConnell give a speech basically saying that Trump was guilty but he voted to acquit because... reasons?
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 28198
Posted: 13 February 2021 at 4:56pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Yes
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James Johnson
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 16 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 1487
Posted: 13 February 2021 at 6:07pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Meanwhile...

A LEO was killed and no one has been charged with that crime.

GOPee to Cops - Luv Ya Blue!!!!


Edited by James Johnson on 13 February 2021 at 6:10pm
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Paul Kimball
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 21 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1976
Posted: 13 February 2021 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

James that is one hard to decipher( for me) post.
I don't know what the heck a Leo is, no idea what you're referencing since
there are no links and if no one was charged then presumably the police
weren't able to find enough evidence, but you love them....are you rooting for
the killer?
And what does this have to do with Trump'crimes?
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Steven Myers
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 10 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5402
Posted: 13 February 2021 at 7:30pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

The Republicans are trying to have it both ways. They can decry Trump as a criminal and save face with the moderates, but acquit him on a technicality and try to save face with the extreme right.
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