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Gundars Berzins
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 14 March 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 1419
Posted: 23 February 2021 at 9:45am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

So right JB.
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4571
Posted: 23 February 2021 at 10:58am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

"...certain characters are said to have lived longer..." Than WHAT? Bruce Wayne has lived longer than Dick Grayson, Barry Allen has lived* longer than Wally West, Perry White has (likely) lived longer than Clark Kent and Lois Lane.

I've said before and I'll say again - there's real life and there's comic book life. The two CAN'T be compared in most cases and shouldn't in others. If we take the plain human heroes... they can't recover in a month from some of the injuries they take... but they do. They simply cannot do what they accomplish in comics. Swinging on a silken line after diving off a thirty story building? Impossible. Ricocheting a disc off four HUMAN targets and returning to the slinger's hand? Impossible. Firing an arrow that bounces three times and hits its target? IMPOSSIBLE. But it's nothing in comics.

Time passes, people get hungry and then have to poop, people have to sleep and heal - all of this is obviated in comics**, and it should be. These are action/adventure stories. Even the human parts of them support the heroes, not turn into discussion groups.

But now DC wants a sixty year old Batman and forty-eight year old*** Robin? Yeah, sure, whatever.

*If you call that living... :)
**Except for weirdos who want to see Reed Richards topless or Batman making hot monkey love to Catwoman. And that's porn, not comics.
***I once figured that Batman is 12 years older than Robin. That seems to fit for all common needs.
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James Johnson
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 16 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 1491
Posted: 23 February 2021 at 11:15am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH 
WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH
FUCKING WHY DC?

 
But I will admit I do miss Dan Jurgens art.


Edited by James Johnson on 23 February 2021 at 11:24am
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John Byrne

Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 123905
Posted: 23 February 2021 at 11:24am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I once figured that Batman is 12 years older than Robin. That seems to fit for all common needs.

When introduced, robin was 10. A 22 year old Bruce seems a bit young to be adopting anyone!

I was comfortable with Bruce being in his mid-thirties--as long as he never went past them. And therein lies the problem!

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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 2642
Posted: 23 February 2021 at 12:15pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I remember the first Spider-Man comic I saw, it was set in a very realistic New York City, and it showed a Daily Bugle cover looking fairly authentic... but my six or seven year old reaction to it was, 'do they think we're dumb, like this really happened in a real city!' I was there for the fantasy, not a documentary, 'duh'. I was accepting of Shazam, Superman & Supergirl, and of course Donald Duck,and Archie, with their made-up place names more easily. Fawcettville, Metropolis, Midvale, Duckberg, Riverdale... they seemed perfectly easy to accept, but the New York City of Spider-Man people admire so often was quite a negative to me as a new reader. Earth 1 and Earth 2 were actually quite fascinating when I did bump into those concepts at that age of everything being new to me.

It took me until I was twelve to even look at a Marvel superhero comic without some disdain toward the supposed realism of them, and then of course they replaced DC quite handily as my go to comic reading provider. The problem is super-powered people are fantasy characters that were created in the first place for the 5-12 year old audience primarily. Marvel did stretch the age range that up to around say 16 I would guess (because E.C. didn't do superheroes). After that I think the whole thing is just going to break if you try and go further, at least in terms of something sustainable. So if you can't read these things at a younger level you pretty much have only missed the boat on adult literature, which costumes and powers and codenames are inherently not too compatible with anymore than talking ducks, or bare minimum, not for very long.

So, I wouldn't mind if they just sort of gradually restart without saying so. I come from when the awareness of 'back issues', never mind ones from decades past, didn't really enter the picture outside of indirectly with the aforementioned Earths 1 & 2 etc. thing, and Captain America in a big ice cube for a dozen plus years. Just make a nod now and then without drawing attention to the flaw... there is no resolving it in a way that lets you keep entertaining 5-12 or up to 16 year olds with such obvious fantasy characters. Whether anyone likes it or not, all the super-powered people are essentially made of the same pencil and ink as Donald Duck, Archie and Tin Tin. If you want to keep going with those characters and not do a Gasoline Alley or Terry & the Pirates and have them die and new creations start, but strips have creator control comic books have not had for most of their existence.

Tell a good story. A good story that makes people want to go along with the price of the ride. Anything beyond that story does not need constant explaining. This is Duckberg, in the state of Calisota, here it is, take it or leave it. This is Superman, strange visitor from another planet who came to earth with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men. This is student/photographer Peter Parker who is secretly also Spider-Man. And then the current story begins. If you have a kind of a story that doesn't really fit or require these characters, go and do that instead.


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 23 February 2021 at 12:18pm
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Rodrigo castellanos
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 03 July 2012
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 781
Posted: 23 February 2021 at 1:13pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

My head hurts.

Just get good talent and tell good stories with these amazingly rich characters you're blessed to have as your IPs. 

The only difficulty are the fans themselves and the fans turned pro that write and edit the books and their obsession for all the stories to "count".

You've read and enjoyed it? Then it counts. 

I'm well past my era of checking out new comics every month unless something specific catches my eye, except for Batman which I'm always sort of interested in what's going on (don't know why, really).

I've read the Snyder run and found it underwhelming with the constant "remixing" of older stories but I understood the thinking behind it. These things go round and round and for new readers (if they indeed exist) maybe this retreading of old ideas is kinda new and exciting. Kind of the reasoning behind the Star Wars sequels.

I still think new, original stories are always preferable but I get it. The Joker has to return in some spectacular way from time to time. The Riddler is due for a new re-imagining and to be showed as something more of a menace. It never worked the 35 times they tried that before but that's the way it goes.

I tried the Tom King Rebirth thing and I hated it, so I didn't follow it. It doesn't count for me. Batman married Catwoman and then got stood up or whatever? Fine, I don't care. I'll be back when another team is on it and it looks good. Not that hard.

Same applies for the rest of the books. If they put their "braintrust" to work on original, fresh story ideas and arcs instead of trying to solve the impossible to "solve" continuity issues maybe nobody would care about them in the first place.


I (used to)* say that there was never an explanation needed/given for the multiple incarnations for comic book movie characters - why are they needed in the comics themselves?

*Well, that's been going out the window the latest TV and movie projects. But it took a while!

Exactly. 

James Bond (talk about a character that's really fundamentally attached to a specific historical era!) seems to be doing fine. Put smart people on it, tell good stories. Nobody will care if this is in fact the very same James Bond that had a jetpack and a scottish accent or was fighting Jaws in a spaceship. The character's universal appeal is not about that.

Movies use to do this fine. But as you said, the multiverse is coming now for the films. I'm wary of the idea. They have a great thing going on and want to get the worst, messiest part of the comics in it? Doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

(I mean the multiverse as we comics fans understand it, and going into the wormhole of "explaining everything". Movie fans don't need that, there's no problem to fix. Heath Ledger was the Joker, then Joaquin Phoenix was the Joker in a completely different movie and portraying a completely different character and now Jared Leto is back as the Joker for this Justice League thing and nobody bats an eye. Again, not hard if you are not very especially motivated to overthink it)


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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 13759
Posted: 23 February 2021 at 1:15pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Except for weirdos who want to see Reed Richards topless

-

Eh?

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John Byrne

Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 123905
Posted: 23 February 2021 at 1:23pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

And none of them played the Joker. Caesar Romero probably came closest!
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Adam Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 22 July 2017
Posts: 1627
Posted: 23 February 2021 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

"The Linearverse seems to exist as a storytelling option, to tell specific tales that require or benefit from the premise (for example) the current very serious Batman actually had and remembers his wackier, kid-friendlier science fiction-inspired adventures from the '50s, or that Superman and Batman have been friends for nearly 80 years.

As of now, DC has not announced any plans for more stories set in the Linearverse, but it is a new club in the bag for writers with a story to tell."

So it's not the mainstream DC Universe -- it's just there in case a writer has an idea for a story. OK, fine. As long as it doesn't bleed into the main books who cares if the Linearverse is there or not? If you like the idea, cool. If you don't, you can ignore it. (The two-issue story that introduced the Linearverse didn't cross over into any other titles.)

No reason to get upset over what's probably no big deal.
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Adam Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 22 July 2017
Posts: 1627
Posted: 23 February 2021 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Also, at least since BATMAN: YEAR THREE, published in the late '80s, it's been canonical that Bruce was around 27 when he adopted Dick, who was 12. Since most of the New 52 crap has been retconned away (pushed to, yes, Earth-52), that's still canonical.
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John Byrne

Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 123905
Posted: 23 February 2021 at 1:34pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

...new club in the bag...

GOLF reference! Just the thing for the graying audience DC seems to want to play to!

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Rodrigo castellanos
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 03 July 2012
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 781
Posted: 23 February 2021 at 1:48pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

And none of them played the Joker. Caesar Romero probably came closest!

Haha I feel you but better not open THAT can of worms, JB...

So it's not the mainstream DC Universe -- it's just there in case a writer has an idea for a story. OK, fine. As long as it doesn't bleed into the main books who cares if the Linearverse is there or not? If you like the idea, cool. If you don't, you can ignore it.

I'm all for ignoring stuff, that was kinda what I was saying.

But this is not it. So now they have 52 earths AND an Omniverse and a Linearverse whatever that means? And of course if a writer has an idea for a story there's Elseworlds (is there?) and the "Earth One" thing (still a thing?) or Black Label, or... just tell the damn story! (In my best Grampa Simpson impression)

It's more over complication for no reason. Reminds me of something a Marvel president (can't remember which!) once supposedly said: "I have a Harvard PHD, if I don't understand these things (meaning comics), I'm not the problem".

He's kinda right.




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