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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14812
Posted: 26 February 2021 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

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I would not consider it discrimination to require a person to use a restroom that matches their biological sex, or play on a sports team that is designated for their biological sex.  Because again, I am treating gender identity and biological sex as two separate issues.  And in the latter examples, the designation is based on sex, rather than gender.

How are you defining biological sex? Chromosomes? That's insufficient. Genitalia? That also can get complicated.

Would you require a cis-passing trans woman to use the men's restroom? Does that seem safe to you? It seems potentially unsafe for a noncis-passing trans woman to use the men's restroom for that matter. You don't think there'd be any issues with a cis-passing trans man to be using the women's restroom? He'd be kicked out of there quickly.

Bathroom laws would require cis-passing trans people to out themselves in order to use the bathroom that matches their chromosomes or break the law because no one would notice otherwise and all they want to do is use the bathroom. I know what I would choose if I were in that position. And those who can't pass for cisgendered will face hostility for using a restroom that doesn't match their presented gender.

How is any of this not discriminatory? It's treating people differently with regard to their appearance rather than the needs of their situation.
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4520
Posted: 26 February 2021 at 1:56pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply
I think for a lot of people many of these topics would simply fall under the 'too much information', or even 'in your face' aspect. That is their problem, but at one level I totally can understand it and even relate, and it isn't inherently entirely negative. Kids seeing a man and a woman kissing often have a 'yuck' response, and then later they don't. Maybe it's that simple? And on the other side are groups that are 'the other' to someone else wanting to show they are just as much real individual human beings as they are!

Whatis right for one person isn't always the measure of what's right for another. A man is attracted to women, big deal, who cares but him really? A man is attracted to men, ditto. Someone says they have been lying all along to be seen as a man to whatever degree = they should have the support to work that out how they choose and for it not to be anyone else's business anymore than the first example. The public displays bit is always going to be there for all things no matter what for someone, that's just a basic fact of life you accept. In a large city or a rural village you are going to have your space infringed upon by others who share the same space.

I've seen many public restrooms where there is no designation aside from all this current stuff about them, because they were for one user at a time. Some started providing wheelchair and disabled accessible ones after those groups raised awareness. Where there are designated washrooms though I find it a bloody nuisance as there are so often line-ups for the women's, and, you might not know this, there's often less space in them because there are baby care areas in there! It might be easiest to just switch over to a lot of individual all users facilities than anything else... I know I'm pretty happy to see those.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14812
Posted: 26 February 2021 at 2:26pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply
The US can just get the European style bathroom stalls where the door to extends all the way to the ground and the restrooms are gender neutral. 
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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 807
Posted: 26 February 2021 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply
"The US can just get the European style bathroom stalls where the door to extends all the way to the ground and the restrooms are gender neutral."

I think this is the best solution, and it is what I would recommend to anyone who is constructing a new building, but I would not be in favor of mandating that buildings have gender neutral bathrooms; especially if it would require retrofitting the buildings.

"I've seen many public restrooms where there is no designation aside from all this current stuff about them, because they were for one user at a time."

Also a great idea.  I've been to a few places (like movie theatres) where they have to have large public restrooms to accommodate the crowds, but in addition to the gender designated restrooms, they have one or two small restrooms that are designed for a single occupant and are gender neutral.

"How are you defining biological sex?"  

I would say by genitalia, but I'm not suggesting that people be inspected.  I favor a "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy like they had for gays in the military during the Clinton years.  So a cis-passing trans woman could go into a private stall in the women's restroom and maintain her anonymity.  

I don't think there is a perfect solution, because nothing you do is going to satisfy everyone.  But I also don't feel its the government's job to eliminate every potentially awkward or uncomfortable situation.
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