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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132239
Posted: 25 February 2021 at 9:28am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

...except when you don’t.

“Hypocrisy” just isn’t enough word for the Republicans.

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Daniel Gillotte
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 11 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2587
Posted: 25 February 2021 at 10:03am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

There's no depth to their grossness.
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Marc Baptiste
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3655
Posted: 25 February 2021 at 12:23pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I am not a scientist or medical professional and I don't pretend to understand the science behind transgenderism.  And with what teeny tiny bit of the brain we do understand so far, neither should anyone else.  As a gay man I DO know what it is like to know you are different from the "norm" from a very early age and to be hated and despised for it.

My own personal view is that there is no such thing as a "gay gene" (though I am more than prepared to be proven wrong).  Instead I believe that all sexuality is brain oriented/hormonal in nature.  The default position being heterosexual and that in a percentage of fetuses certain stressors and other as yet unknown factors cause increases and/or decreases in testosterone or estrogen to "wash over" the fetus "rewiring" or altering the sexuality of the fetus. This doesn't make it any less "hard-wired" than the existence of a "gay gene" - it's just a different biological process.  This may very well be true of transgenderism.

However, I do have my own POLITICAL issues with the trans community.  For one, I am not altogether certain that the T in transgender belongs lumped in with LGBT.  Transgenderism is a GENDER issue, not a sexual ORIENTATION issue.  It's apples and oranges.  For example, a  cisgender woman who transitions into a man, and who is sexually attracted to women, is a heterosexually oriented man.  They are not lesbian, gay or bisexual.  

I could also go on about my disdain for the highly politically charged issue of there being more than 2 genders.  Since the header of this thread is to "Trust the Science... the science is clear: from a chromosomal perspective, there are XX, XY and the very rare instances of genetic mosaic variations (e.g. XXY).  We can't expect the right wing to take us seriously on things like climate change when we insist on wanting 33 different gender check boxes on census forms!  

Again, our LACK of understanding of what is most likely a chemical/hormonal/brain issue should not have us radically changing language and known scientific facts.  At best it should have us saying "we just don't know yet".

Marc










Edited by Marc Baptiste on 25 February 2021 at 12:24pm
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 30887
Posted: 25 February 2021 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

What do we expect from a woman whose entire political career is trying
to out-Trump Trump?
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4499
Posted: 25 February 2021 at 1:18pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Geez, isn't the Republican basically saying "I'm simple, you have to keep things stone-age simple for me or I just can't cope. Ug." I wish they'd go back to whenever they think was so great and stay out of everyone else's way.

Didn't know there was a 'trans flag' until now though; you can learn something new almost ever day.

So if someone is no longer in any sort of transitional state... can't they just be counted as what they currently are? If it even really matters... I don't understand why so many things even have a M/F etc. box to be checked... just to open an account on a music retailer website for example! I know it used to be you would either check Miss, Mrs. or Ms. for some things; how you wanted to be addressed in writing... but that seems less and less of an important thing.

Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 25 February 2021 at 1:20pm
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14812
Posted: 25 February 2021 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply


 QUOTE:
I could also go on about my disdain for the highly politically charged issue of there being more than 2 genders.  Since the header of this thread is to "Trust the Science... the science is clear: from a chromosomal perspective, there are XX, XY and the very rare instances of genetic mosaic variations (e.g. XXY).

The science is also clear that the chromosomal perspective is insufficient in determining sex and gender identity. There are XY individuals who are phenotypically female and XX individuals who are phenotypically male, due to factors like a malfunctioning SRY gene or androgen insensitivity or disorders that affect the production of hormones. The takeaway is that it’s not simply X and Y. 


 QUOTE:
We can't expect the right wing to take us seriously on things like climate change when we insist on wanting 33 different gender check boxes on census forms.

That stems from trying to apply a binary categorization to something that is not binary and complicating it further by conflating socially determined gender roles with gender identity. 

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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4499
Posted: 25 February 2021 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Marc: there are intersexed people of all sorts. There are genuine physical hermaphrodites. There are XY people who are androgen insensitive to varying degrees and who develop as physically, though infertile, females. There are some real horror stories of operations being imposed upon some of them to correct the 'mistake', usually in early childhood, to make them conform to some imagined binary ideal, and the horror being the person choosing who was not the person operated on made the wrong choice. You are right that orientation is something else entirely, and in some ways it might be a disservice to the trans and inter people to associate the two, but isn't that mainly because of the prejudices generally out there? So perhaps the connective points of an experience as 'other' is considered a positive. I do know there was a flap at a gay club here where lesbian and bi women's space was described as 'invaded' by trans folks, but I have zero idea how that worked out. All the agendas revolving around restrooms and changing rooms seem a bit exotic but extremely serious apparently for some, and they used to also be a place of entrapment and prosecution (persecution) of gay men.

I'm of an age myself now where I no longer care what is considered feminine. Obviously reading superhero comics was often on the dubious side, but I just really hate most home decor shows! :^D

Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 25 February 2021 at 1:35pm
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Marc Baptiste
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3655
Posted: 25 February 2021 at 2:15pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Michael and Rebecca,

All very good and interesting points for me to study and learn from.  I repeat, I am no scientist or medical professional.

Please let me point out that I stand 100% square in my support of the rights of transgender people, along with all vulnerable minorities to be specifically and categorically protected in law and are equally deserving of the love and support of their fellow humans (though I realize you cannot mandate the latter).

I also abhor the practice of gender assignment surgery (you cannot call it gender confirmation surgery when done on infants or very young children who cannot give their thoughts and consent to it) just to make doctors and parents "feel" better and more "secure" that their child is a real "boy" or a "girl".

I still stand by my closing point that there is still SO much we don't know.

Marc

(P.S., please note, if you read my post thoroughly you quite clearly see that I DID point out that BINARY gender does not exist)



Edited by Marc Baptiste on 25 February 2021 at 2:18pm
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Andrew Bitner
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 01 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7480
Posted: 25 February 2021 at 3:05pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Greene is a loathsome piece of subhuman garbage. I look forward to her godawful personality and lack of political skills to help her career implode messily and permanently. 
Seriously, this horrifying b*tch can't be gone too soon.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14812
Posted: 25 February 2021 at 3:25pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

I still stand by my closing point that there is still SO much we don't know.

———

Certainly. But we do know enough to know the conservative definition of “science” when it comes to sex, sexual orientation, and gender identity is wrong.
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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 804
Posted: 26 February 2021 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

"We can't expect the right wing to take us seriously on things like climate change when we insist on wanting 33 different gender check boxes on census forms!"

I'm on the right, and I take you seriously regarding both issues.  

At this point I question whether there should even be a "gender" box on government forms anymore.  How is it relevant to any of the services provided by the government?  If we separate the concept of gender from the concept of biological sex, why does the government need to know my gender in the first place?

Personally, I don't care how many genders there are, nor do I consider it my business or my right to tell someone else what gender they should identify as. 

I oppose discrimination based on gender identity, but I should clarify because I'm sure that I view the concept of "discrimination" differently that many of you on the left do in this instance.  

I would consider it discrimination to terminate someone's employment, refuse to hire a person, or refuse them essential services based on their gender identity.  

I would not consider it discrimination to require a person to use a restroom that matches their biological sex, or play on a sports team that is designated for their biological sex.  Because again, I am treating gender identity and biological sex as two separate issues.  And in the latter examples, the designation is based on sex, rather than gender.  

Michael Roberts, I acknowledge your point that even sex is not as simple as X or Y, but the people who don't fit into those categories are an extremely small minority.  I think in general, policy/rules should be crafted to apply to the 99% of individuals who are either biologically male or biologically female.  In the truly rare instances where biological sex is unclear, the individual circumstances of that person should be considered, and an appropriate accommodation should be made.


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Michael Murphy
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 06 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 339
Posted: 26 February 2021 at 12:09pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

There is more to sex than chromosomes. Studies on sex go back years. I was easily able to find one from from 1968 by Keith L. Moore, PhD., "THE SEXUAL IDENTITY OF ATHLETES". In it he talks about there being 9 components: "external genital appearance, internal reproductive organs, structure of the gonads, endocrinologic sex, genetic sex, nuclear sex, chromosomal sex, psychological sex, social sex". 

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