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Marc Baptiste
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3530
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 5:26am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Michael,

I read your "opposing shit-for-tat" comment as a scatalogically colorful equivalency argument (i.e., "tit-for-tat").  For myself, I would never frame these two examples in the way you did.  They are night and day.

Marc


Edited by Marc Baptiste on 07 April 2021 at 5:27am
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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 184
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 9:36am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

"Trump supporters, some carrying Confederate flags, stormed the Capitol and literally smeared feces in the hallways. But I'm not convinced an opposing shit-for-tat strategy is the smartest choice."

I agree with Marc on this one.  There is no link between these two events, including no evidence that one was in response to the other.

And there are other problems with your statement. You seem to be implying that all Trump supporters are racists because SOME were carrying Confederate flags, and suggesting that race was the motive behind the capitol riot; which as far as I am aware, is incorrect.  The rioters were trying to prevent the certification of the election results because they believed Biden won through fraud.  

I'm sure there were racists among the mob, but that had nothing to do with the attack. 

Finally, the rioters breaking into the capitol building and smearing feces on the walls (among the other despicable acts they committed) should be universally condemned.  But "carrying the confederate flag" should not be lumped in with their crimes.  Promoting the flag is a legitimate example of free speech.  It may not be speech that we agree with, but again, it is speech that we should tolerate, because not doing so weakens our own first amendment rights.

Racist speech,  and other forms of speech that we disagree with should be opposed by speaking out against it; not silencing people.  

 
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Marc Baptiste
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Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3530
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 9:52am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

John,

"I'm sure there were racists among the mob, but that had nothing to do with the attack."

I am not sure I agree with that statement.  Race is a YUGE factor (overt or closeted) among Trump supporters.  And these were HARDCORE Trump supporters.

Marc
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John Wickett
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Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 184
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 10:03am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Marc, I agree there are hardcore racists among Trump supporters, but racism is not the motive behind everything they do.  

In this instance, Trump convinced these people that Biden stole the election, and they attacked the capitol in hopes of somehow overturning the election results.  So race was not a factor.  

I think its important to point that out, because if we're crying wolf, it erodes our credibility such that accusations of racism are less potent at times when they are actually warranted. 


Edited by John Wickett on 07 April 2021 at 10:03am
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James Johnson
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Joined: 16 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 1487
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 11:30am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

....but racism is not the motive behind everything they do........

======================================================

John,

But it does determine the consequences of their actions.

As I said many times before, if these were POC that were insurrectionists, the HazMat team would still be collecting up organs from the Capital grounds and leave the blood stains behind as a reminder for other POC that would think of doing such a thing again.

If waving a confederate flag inside the Capital (or other places where Covid-45 hold rallies) while trespassing ain't displaying their racist motives, then what is?


Edited by James Johnson on 07 April 2021 at 11:30am
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 13759
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 11:51am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Too many people seem to think that being "racist" means being a card-carrying member of the KKK or a Neo-Nazi group and it's not.

I find that POC tend to be less concerned with the "hardcore racists", because those guys are assholes and would probably be assholes regardless of their racism. And those guys are obvious, so you see them coming. It's the more insidious and pervasive forms of racism that are the problem.

From my perspective, a lot of support for Trump seems to stem from cultural anxiety. Trump supporters perceive POC, women, non-cishet people expressing their voices and asserting their places in American society, and believing that it is a zero-sum game, thinking that means they are losing something. They view Trump as the means to get that back. What else does "Make America Great Again" mean? And how is that not motivated in part by racism?


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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 2632
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Supporting a racist is promoting racism even if a lot of people have been whining about "not everyone who voted for ______ is a racist". The old 'other good qualities' b.s. Let's say I am extremely for a position and so is a totally horrible person who spreads false stats about black violence as real... well that is exactly how a lot of Americans failed their nation in 2016. In this age of information they magically overlooked a lot of serious warning evidence and got a massively inappropriate and inexperienced provably racist 'businessman' tied to Russia close enough to win with minus three million. This is where you are.

I wrote here against stunts of yelling at people in restaurants and got some flak, even had Martin Luther King Jr. quoted to me about being one of those middle of the road types. I stand against such escalation and absolutism, I do name call a bit though, I'm human, but I won't say I'm right for it. I'm not praying in public but do live these things. I have acted to make my country a better place and offer my neighbor the same. There are a million distractions, media trials packaged as infotainment as often coming to bizarre conclusions as not (from O.J. to George Zimmerman to the impeachment proceedings for naught but more speechmaking). I don't see some of these things in other modern countries. I see some of it in my own mostly as an over-spill from U.S. media.

Start tuning out all the dumb stunts and all the junk infotainment. It is important to learn to do that.
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John Wickett
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Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 184
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 2:13pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

"But it does determine the consequences of their actions.  As I said many times before, if these were POC that were insurrectionists, the HazMat team would still be collecting up organs from the Capital grounds and leave the blood stains behind as a reminder for other POC that would think of doing such a thing again."

I'm not sure I agree with you on that, but for the sake of discussion, lets say you're right.  Isn't that a separate issue?  Now you're talking about law enforcement who broke up the riots potentially being racist.  If there's some indication of that, its worthy of discussion, but whether the police are racists has nothing to do with the motives of the people who attacked the capitol. 


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Mark Haslett
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Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5102
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 2:17pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Let me put it this way:

If my city decided to erect a monument to a man whose whole life was dedicated to promoting racism and enslaving people of my background, I would not put up with it. If the statue became legally protected and historically registered, it would still not be safe.

How many monuments dedicated to the promotion of racism are too many? What exact f*cking number is too many?
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Marc Baptiste
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Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3530
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 2:44pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

John,

There are statues that some people also want to bring down that are more controversial: George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, etc.  Maybe picking one that celebrates a treasonous, racist,. slaver like Jefferson Davis wasn't the best hill to climb on to illustrate your point.

Marc


Edited by Marc Baptiste on 07 April 2021 at 2:48pm
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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 184
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 3:05pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Marc, I disagree.  Its exactly the right statue, because all of us can agree that Jefferson Davis is one of the villains of American history.  

The question here isn't whether we should revere Jefferson Davis, or whether we think he is worthy of a monument.  

The question is how deeply we believe in the first amendment.  If somebody else thinks Davis is worthy of a monument, do we believe in free speech enough to allow them to erect it?  Or do we tear it down to silence them, steal pieces of the monument, and hold them hostage until the people who erected it say the things we want them to say, etc.?

I am NOT defending racism.  I am defending the right of a person to express an opinion that is contrary to my own, and I'm saying we should all be willing to do the same as Americans. 
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James Johnson
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 16 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 1487
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 3:10pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

John,

You have been consistently trying to justify racism no matter your response to this issue.

Defend all you want.

Time to ignore.


Edited by James Johnson on 07 April 2021 at 3:12pm
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