Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum MOBILE
Byrne Robotics | The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 4 Next >>
Topic: Stealing/Theft Is Wrong.... Post Reply | Post New Topic
Author
Message
John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 184
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 3:16pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

To clarify my previous post, I'm not saying we have to stand by silently while symbols of racism are erected around us.

We also have freedom of speech, and we should use it.  Last year many cities chose to remove or relocate confederate monuments in response to protests by the public (not referring to the ones where protestors tore down statues themselves), op-eds, letters written to council members, etc.  That's the right way to go about this.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Marc Baptiste
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3530
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

John,

I think our understanding of the First Amendment differs slightly - in all my studies, the one thing that I very clearly remember coming away with, was that your First Amendment right to free speech guarantees your right to say (almost) anything you wish - what you DON'T have a right to is a bull horn, soapbox, or printing press to go with it.

I do agree that the best way to go about removing these monuments is through the political process (e.g., legislative) AND I absolutely abhor a "heckler's veto".  However, just like I have a perfect right to walk SAFELY and PEACEABLY down a dark alley in a bad part of town in the dead of night, I shouldn't feign shock and awe when I am mugged or worse.

Similarly, if I want to erect a monument of a treasonous, racist, slaver or World War II genocidal dictator in full public view of everyone, I must KNOW this is going to happen and be ready to deal with the consequences (e.g, repair, replace, or remove).

Marc


Edited by Marc Baptiste on 07 April 2021 at 3:36pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 2632
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 4:22pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I can't help when watching Hawaii Five-O remembering how King Kamehameha (the 'great' one, that you see a lei draped statue of in the openings) drove women and children off of cliffs to their deaths. Statues are things, flags are things... people must always come before things!

It was sheer a-holery combined either with racism or profound ignorance that put up so many monuments to Confederate 'heroes' for a hundred and fifty years following the end of the U.S. civil war. Also something Robert E. Lee warned people specifically not to do. Having mini or full sized Confederate flags on anything official was insane.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 184
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 4:25pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

"...what you DON'T have a right to is a bull horn, soapbox, or printing press to go with it."

Sorry Marc, but I don't understand what you mean by this.  Please clarify. 

The First Amendment gives you the right of expression.  You're not entitled to an audience.  If that is what you're saying, I agree with you.

As I understand it, this is a situation where a private organization purchased plots in a cemetery, raised money, and then used private funds to erect a monument on their plots; apparently with the blessing of the city (which sold them the plots).   

I don't think that's equivalent to shouting in someone's face with a bull horn.  

"Similarly, if I want to erect a monument of a treasonous, racist, slaver or World War II genocidal dictator in full public view of everyone, I must KNOW this is going to happen and be ready to deal with the consequences (e.g, repair, replace, or remove)."

I agree, but I think that is beside the point.  You'd be foolish to walk down a dark alley where you knew there was a high probability that you'd be mugged.  But your foolishness doesn't justify the mugging.  The muggers are still in the wrong.  
Back to Top profile | search
 
Marc Baptiste
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3530
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 4:27pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

John,

In all my posts, I never said the vandals were in the right - I was simply saying this should have been seen coming  from miles away.  But then can an organization that is so obsessed with looking backwards that it calls itself the Daughters of the Confederacy really be counted on to look ahead.

Marc


Edited by Marc Baptiste on 07 April 2021 at 4:30pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
James Johnson
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 16 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 1487
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 4:29pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

It was sheer a-holery combined either with racism or profound ignorance that put up so many monuments to Confederate 'heroes' for a hundred and fifty years following the end of the U.S. civil war. Also something Robert E. Lee warned people specifically not to do. Having mini or full sized Confederate flags on anything official was insane.

=======================================================

Rebecca,

The crazy thing is that these folks are not ignorant of what the Confederate flag and their Civil War "heroes" represent.

They know the racist history behind it, but choose to look the other way.

Each time I hear heritage from their mouths, the more I know that I am dealing with an asshole.
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 184
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 4:39pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

"Statues are things, flags are things... people must always come before things!"

You are absolutely right.  This isn't about protecting a statue.  Its about protecting a person's right to erect a statue.  The right of people to dissent is essential.  

Right now its easy for us to condemn these statues, and condemn the men they depict, because our generation is more enlightened than theirs.  Its not controversial to refer to Davis in the derogatory terms Marc has used.  

But history (even recent history) teaches us the majority is not always right.  

Marc is a strong advocate for LGBTQ rights on this forum.  Less than 60 years ago, if Marc erected a statue of a gay icon in his front yard, and it was vandalized or torn down, the majority would have been okay with that, because it would have been seen as symbolizing the corruption of traditional moral values.    

We live in increasingly divisive times.  I would wager that most of us are exposed to speech that we find offensive on a daily basis; especially of we're watching the news, or participating in any form of social media.

Its important that we know how to productively deal with dissenting opinions.  
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 184
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 4:43pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

"In all my posts, I never said the vandals were in the right"

Marc, I didn't mean to imply that.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I just meant that the foreseeability of the vandalism doesn't justify the vandalism.  
Back to Top profile | search
 
Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 2632
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 5:03pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I think there is a southern U.S. heritage to be proud of, certainly in music and writing there is a lot. Mostly the civil war was a horrible thing where you wonder to what extent should a nation be indivisible by force of arms? There are enough words of wisdom from former confederates like General Lee to have guided people into a much more positive future while not forgetting anything. It's maybe most tragic that Andrew Johnson was the one to take power after Lincoln's assassination and the reconstruction got about as botched in many areas as it could've been.

I don't think I can put up a statue to Hitler across the street from Jewish people, nor Mao near Taiwanese living here. As a Protestant I think the right of the Orangemen to parade in Northern Ireland is not worth them having, and that it is obviously used often to provoke Catholics.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 184
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

"I don't think I can put up a statue to Hitler across the street from Jewish people, nor Mao near Taiwanese living here."

To do so would be morally reprehensible, and one would hope the entire community would come together to express disapproval, but yes, you would be entitled to freedom of expression in this instance.  
Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 11249
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I just ran a moot court this morning wherein my students argued about whether particular (and particularly vile) screaming statements against against abortion providers outside a clinic constituted a true threat violating the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act or were protected under the First Amendment as political hyperbole. Sometimes, you get not only your say but a place to say it.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 2632
Posted: 07 April 2021 at 6:00pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

People protesting have had to be x number of feet away from entrances to facilities where abortions happen. Not that this stopped the supposed pro-life fanatics who have actually killed doctors who performed them.

Hate speech directed towards groups simply existing, and incitement of any gathering to violence or panic, have no protected place. The right for the neo-nazis and KKK to parade when it has been allowed has proven why it shouldn't be. Seeing the right to publish or republish imagery intended to deliberately blaspheme against an existing culture enshrined is also not my idea of justice or liberty.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 

<< Prev Page of 4 Next >>
  Post Reply | Post New Topic |

Forum Jump

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login

You are currently viewing the MOBILE version of the site.
CLICK HERE TO VIEW THE FULL SITE