Kinda surprised there hasn't been thread on this, yet.

This year marks the 50th anniversary of the publication of AMAZING FANTASY # 15, the first appearance of the ever-amazing Spider-Man (cover-dated August, 1962, released June 5, 1962).

Spider-Man is my single favorite comic book character. No other character has grabbed me in quite the same way. He's very easy to relate to--a geeky kid who has all sorts of everyday problems to deal with (but lets loose when he's behind the mask). And he has some of the coolest powers and equipment ever (not to mention my favorite costume design), as well as the richest supporting cast in comics.

There's just an...intimacy to the character, a personal aspect that a lot of others don't have. His life and his problems are very involving, so much so that the ongoing soap-opera of Parker's personal life can often be just as entertaining and engaging as the superheroics and the action.

And, in true underdog fashion, Spider-Man went from a one-shot character in a cancelled book to Marvel's top-seller and corporate mascot. Quite an accomplishment!

For me, these few images (and their accompanying word balloons) kinda of say it all. Remarkable that so much of the character and his world were set up in that first 11-page story.

I've tracked down and collected every issue of every Spider-title from about 1962-1993 or so (with most of the first 40 issues of AMAZING in Masterworks form--everything else is original). One of these days, I'm gonna sit down and read 'em all in order, soaking in all of that history (good AND bad).

Certainly, the Lee/Ditko run is iconic and unsurpassed, but I also love the Lee/Romita, Conway/Andru, Stern/JR JR, and DeFalco/Frenz runs, among others.

Unfortunately, in the last few years, I've become completely disconnected from the character. My prime reading years were during the bloody Clone Saga, and, even then, at my young age, I was not at all pleased with that trainwreck of a storyline. Certainly, even before that, the problems had started. Moving Parker to college was the first step. The death of Gwen Stacy was another. The marriage was yet another.

Still, I maintain that many good Spider-Man stories were told thoughout all of those periods in his history. I don't think the core of the character really began to disintegrate until the 90s. I've pinpointed the exact moment when things truly and irrevocably began to go south for the character, in my humble opinion: the "return" of Parker's parents at the end of AMAZING # 365 (the 30th anniversary issue, interestingly enough). This led to "Lifetheft", "Pursuit", the "I am the Spider" nonsense, the Clone Saga, etc., etc., etc.

I did enjoy JB's CHAPTER ONE for what it was--a fun retelling of the old stories with a few new twists. Not that anything could ever top Lee/Ditko, of course. But that series certainly didn't offend me, as it seems to have offended others.

I hung around for the JB/Mackie reboot for awhile, and tried the JMS stuff (despite the Spider-Totem garbage in that run, JR JR's art was still gorgeous!), but "Sins Past" made me quit modern comics altogether. It was the last straw--a totally icky and shameful story that ruined several characters and mined history for shock value, with Gwen Stacy (a 40-years-dead character whom fans and writers just...won't...let...GO!) front and center. Again.

I've sort of kept tabs on events since then, but thinking of the sorry state of Spider-Man feels like a knife-wound in the chest that won't stop spurting blood! So, I've focused on other things in the past few years. But, losing my connection with my favorite character has been a hard thing to accept.

Now, however, that wound has scabbed over pretty well, and I recently found myself digging out the Masterworks and leafing through the Lee/Ditko run, which is still one of the top two best superhero comic runs ever, IMO (the other being Lee/Kirby's FF). Few characters are as FUN as Spider-Man in his prime. Good times or bad, Peter Parker is a guy you just have to root for.

Unfortunately, this revisting of old stories has also led me to check up on current events, and I see that nothing's changed. The current crop of "creators" continue to mine and destroy the character and his rich history.  Even if things someday come close to sanity and proper Spider-storytelling, I just don't think I could get attached to the book(s) ever again.

Certainly, 2008's deal with Mephisto to negate the marriage stands as one of the worst and most controversial Spider-stories ever (and, given what's gone down in the last two-plus decades--the Clone Saga, "The Other", CIVIL WAR, etc., that's saying something!).

Regardless of one's position on the marriage itself, I think we can all agree that the basic premise of that story was contrived, inappropriate, and shockingly out of character for everyone involved.

That aside, my recent, morbidly-curious research has unearthed a number of developments that just make me sad. To name but a few:

* Spider-Man as a member of the Avengers.

*Aunt May found in bed with--and later marrying--J. Jonah Jameson's father.

* John Jameson marrying the She-Hulk.

* J. Jonah Jameson becoming Mayor of NYC, and mutating into a spider-monster.

* Spider-Man having casual sex with the Black Cat while keeping his mask on.

* Peter Parker getting drunk.

* Peter and Mary Jane living together for a while prior to Brand New Day (but never having gotten married thanks to that little deal with the Devil).

* Mary Jane banging a drug-addicted actor.

* Flash Thompson losing his legs in Iraq. Flash Thompson as Venom.

* Mac Gargan as Venom, who kills kills and eats people (and Skrulls). Mac Gargan framing Jonah Jameson for murder by leaving a dead stripper in his bed.

* The resurrected Norman Osborn (a turn of events I still loathe) becoming the leader of the Thunderbolts--then S.H.I.E.L.D.--then his own "Dark" Avengers (whilst wearing Iron Man-esque armor), before killing the Skrull queen and invading Asgard.

ASGARD.

* Harry Osborn is back from the dead, and a divorcee who later knocks a chick up and fights Norman Osborn while wearing armor of his own, before getting shot in the chest by Norman and Gwen Stacy's bastard son.

And so on...

What.

The.

F***.

So, Spider-Man remains bogged down in ickyness, lack of proper characterization, and one idiotic and inappropriate stunt after another. And movies that misrepresent the character and his world to the general public. Big surprise.

Anyhoo, I've reached a point where I just don't care anymore. Spider-Man is a character who had his time, as are all my other favorites whom I no longer feel connected to. I don't see any kind of reunion with them in my future. It's just...over.

Frankly, it's not even worth getting worked up about. I'm just going to sit back, enjoy my old, good comics, and chill.

Anyhoo, sorry for the negative rant! It's been a bit cathartic, though. 

Now, let us sit back and celebrate this great character and his history. Although I suppose there's room for discussion about the negative stuff, as well. After all, Spider-Man's been "broken" (for me, at least) for nearly half of his publication history.

Favorite stories? Favorite writers/artists? What do you like (or dislike) about Spider-Man and his world?

Chime in, Spidophiles!

So, Spider-Man remains bogged down in ickyness, lack of proper characterization, and one idiotic and inappropriate stunt after another. And movies that misrepresent the character and his world to the general public. Big surprise.

Anyhoo, I've reached a point where I just don't care anymore. Spider-Man is a character who had his time, as are all my other favorites whom I no longer feel connected to. I don't see any kind of reunion with them in my future. It's just...over.

***

This is exactly the way I feel,  not just about Spider-Man, but Marvel & DC in general these days.  The old guard has mostly left.  The fanboys have taken over.  Comics are like bad fanzines now.

Totally agreed on all points, Matt. And, I should note, AF # 15 was voted the single best Marvel story of all time a few years back. I tend to agree--those 11 pages are pure gold. Way cool to see the scans of the original art (anonymously donated to the Library of Congress awhile back) in the new softcover ASM Masterworks.

I should be more clear, though. I'm not saying that my love for the character is over, or that I can't read old stories without fully enjoying them.

I just can't get into the current stuff, nor do I think I'll ever be able to get into future stories. And, for some years, now, my love for the old stuff had been somewhat tainted by the looming spectre of the modern stuff.

Sure, someone may eventually rediscover the real Spider-Man, but my pessimistic side tells me that the damage has been done.

Never say never, though, eh?

Anyway, now that some time has passed, I'm finally reconnecting with the REAL Spider-Man, the one I love so dearly. I'm finally able to just let go of my frustration with the current state of things, and enjoy the hundreds of great comics that I already have.

I'm been buying the lovingly restored softcover Masterworks volumes, and one of the biggest thrills of my life as a fan was having Stan Lee himself sign the title page of my Lee/Ditko ASM Omnibus some two years ago.

I've also been revisiting the various cartoons and TV series, and have been enjoying those, as well.

So, I suppose the REAL disconnect is with the current incanration of the mythos. And now, I'm finally finding my way back to the old mythos. And it's been great!

And, hey, would I have even started this thread if I'd really stopped caring?

Wow, June 5, 1962?  I thought "street date" was always 4 months ahead of the cover date back then.  It wouldn't have been May of '62?

There was a lot of good stuff that came along after MTU 1, but with every passing year I fear Rog's pronouncement becomes more and more true. Sometimes it seems the people currently in charge of Marvel are actually determined to drive the ship onto the rocks. Or did they already do that?

I used to say Rudyard Kipling's http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/if/ - IF was a good summation of Peter Parker. How long has it been since that was true?

I used to say Rudyard Kipling's http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/if/ - IF was a good summation of Peter Parker.

+++++++++

Agreed!

And, for a visual summation...

I was there almost from the ground floor, for the birth of modern Marvel. FF 5, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 1 (I would acquire AMAZING FANTASY 15 about a year later), AVENGERS 1, X-MEN 1, even SGT FURY from very early on. (Thor and Iron Man I was content to mostly follow in THE AVENGERS). I was aware of THE INCREDIBLE HULK, but it took me so long to convince my mother to let me buy it, I was able to pick up only one issue, 5, and then the bad distribution caused me to miss 6, and the book was gone!

Thing is, tho, in each of those instances, the comics were all I had. And only one series for each of them! No cartoons, no toys, no movies. Nada. Just the exquisite anticipation of waiting for the next issue. Which, very often, I missed. And the next. And the next. When I look at how many issues of FF I missed, I am amazed at the sheer dedication that kept me a fan.

So, I wonder what it would have been like if, having missed the latest issue of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, I might still find SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, or tune in SPIDER-MAN AND HIS AMAZING FRIENDS, or just go make my own adventures with the toys!

I'm pretty sure I would not be the same kind of fan I am today. I wonder, tho, if I would still be a fan at all?

They start of great, really hit their stride in the early twenties, and are pretty much untouchable from that point onward.

++++++++

You mean when Ditko took over the plotting?

There are a number of instances in those later issues where it's clear that Stan had no idea what was going on in a given story when he was writing the script! Like the subplot in # 30, which featured the Master Planner's gang as a prelude to the next issue, but where Stan tied them in with the Cat, # 30's villain.

Also, unfortunately, it does feel a bit like Ditko was phoning it in somewhat in the last few issues of the run, after the Master Planner storyline.

*The Romita era kicks off with one of the best two-parters in comics. 

++++++++++++

Interesting, isn't it, that Spider-Man has had several of the best cliffhangers in comic history? To name a few:

* The afforemention bit with Spider-Man buried under rubble at the end of # 32.

* The unmaskings of Spider-Man and the Green Goblin at the end of # 39.

* The reveal of the six-armed Spider-Man at the end of # 100 (not a favorite story of mine, but certainly a memorable cliffhanger!).

* The death of Gwen and Spider-Man's vow of vengeance at the end of # 121.

* The "return" of Gwen at the end of # 143.

That Sensational Spider-Man run with Todd DeZago was a real high point for the character in the 1990s.  Their first issue, Ben Reilly vs. The Looter, might be my single favorite issue from that decade (or the past 20 years, even).

++++++++++

I recall enjoying UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN, although that series suffers from some goofy retcons and villains being slipped into the chronology, as well as the fact, well...why would there even BE any "untold" tales in-between the original stories? Lee and Ditko told all the tales they wanted to tell!

Still, a title that at least felt like the real Spider-Man was refreshing during those dark, dark, Clone Saga days.

••

I was told that was Ditko's response, too.

At one time I had every issue from Amazing Fantasy # 15 and Amazing Spider-Man # 1 to about #570 then Quesada got leaned on by the stockholders and created that moronic Brand New Day storyline and I left and I seriously doubt I'll ever return with that horrible level of management in place.

+++++++++

Of course, the marriage had been part of Spider-Man lore for nearly half his history at the time of that story.

Sure, a single Spider-Man is the purest version of the character, but it seems that all Quesada really did was alienate and enrage those fans still sticking around who supported "growth" and changes like the marriage!

Did Spider-Man's reversion (or devolution) to a single, casual-sex-having guy really bring back old-time fans? Or did it just drive off still more of the 60,000-70,000 or so (and fluctuating) readers still buying AMAZING?

••

Well, as long as Kurt's admitting to it, yes. That's what I heard from Ralph Macchio. He'd come within inches of convincing Ditko to do a new Spider-Man story, then Steve saw UNTOLD, took offense, and backed away.

...enrage those fans still sticking around who supported "growth" and changes like the marriage

Those types of fans the industry can do without.

••

the industry could use all the fans...

The "growth and change" crowd are largely responsible for the sad state of the comic market in the first place. It's their mentality that drove away fresh, casual readers who kept comic sales steady decade after decade. And by appealing to these selfish knuckleheads, the industry is committing a slow and painful suicide.

Alas, when a series along these lines final came to be, in the form of UNTOLD TALES, the anal fanboy mentality was in full vigor, so the stories, rather than just happening "in the Past" simply HAD TO BE set "between" old stories, and even PANELS in those old stories. In other words, the series was tied to the passing of time just as the original series had been. After a while, Peter would have to leave high school, go to college, deal with Gwen's death, etc, etc. All the stuff that had muddied up the original, clean and clear vision.

(The greater crime, tho, for me, was when Marvel gave us "Amazing Fantasy" 16, 17, and so on. This was to insert stories BETWEEN the last panel of the first Spider-Man tale in AMAZING FANTASY 15 and the first panel in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 1. Why? To provide Parker time to "realistically" get good enough with his spider-powers that he could go out and fight crime and save plummeting Mercury capsules. Evidently, all those months he spent going from newly acquired powers to being famous and skilled enough to appear on "Ed Sullivan" wasn't sufficient explanation. Those idiots, Lee and Ditko! Got it WRONG again!)

"The first story you'd do as a fan should be the last story you'd do as a pro." - Len Wein

••

Remind me now, where was your office at Marvel, at the time?

Okay, time to bring up a few favorite stories:

(Basically, the entire Lee-Ditko run, with a few highlights listed below)

* "Spider-Man", AMAZING FANTASY # 15. Often imitated, never duplicated.

* The Master Planner trilogy, ASM # 31-33. 

* "How Green Was My Goblin"/"The End of the Green Goblin", ASM # 39-40.

* "The Goblin Lives!", SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN (magazine) # 2.

* "The Arms of Doctor Octopus"/"Doc Ock Lives!"/"And Death Shall Come", ASM # 88-90.

* The Doctor Octopus/Hammerhead gang war, ASM # 112-115.

* "The Night Gwen Stacy Died"/"The Goblin's Last Stand", ASM # 121-122.

* The original Clone Saga, ASM # 141-150.

* "Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut", ASM # 229-230.

* The original Hobgoblin saga, ASM 238-239, 244-245, 249-251.

* "The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man", ASM # 248.

* The Alien Costume Saga, ASM 252-259.

* The Death of Jean DeWolff, SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN # 107-110, and its sequel, in SSM # 134-136.

* "Fearful Symmetry"/"Kraven's Last Hunt".

* "Best of Enemies", SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN # 200.

I'm sure I'm forgetting a few!

A couple of months ago I picked up Essential Amazing Spider-Man Volume 8 (mostly because it was only $6) and discovered the Amazing Spider-Man comics of my youth!  I had never really considered Ross Andru's Spider-Man a favorite of mine, but my admiration of his work (and Mike Esposito) has grown!  Solid consistent work!

However, my favorite Spider-Man issues were drawn by Gil Kane, John Byrne, Rick Leonardi and JRjr when inked by Klaus Janson!

At the time I really liked Todd McFarlane's Spider-Man issues.  I remember thinking his artwork reminded me of Berkeley Breathed in "Bloom County", but I findTodd's art doesn't appeal to me now like it did back then.

I had never really considered Ross Andru's Spider-Man a favorite of mine, but my admiration of his work (and Mike Esposito) has grown! Solid consistent work!

.............

Andru really is a very good artist, in my opinion of course.  He and Conway were on the title when I first started reading it and I still love that run.

••

McFarlane's stuff blew me away when he first showed up. I said to then-editor Jim Salicrup, once this guy actually learns to draw he's really going to be something!

Unfortunately, he became a MegaSuperRockStar with his art at that level, and so STOPPED.

In my early days, I would finish a page of IRON FIST, or THE AVENGERS, or X-MEN (even on up thru FF and beyond) and think "It WILL get better! It WILL get better!" I wonder how many modern artists struggle with themselves like that. When I look at something like the image Jean-Francois posted, I have a distinct impression of the artist sitting back and thinking "Brilliant!"

I do so hope I am wrong!

That panel of Spider-Man.....yikes!

I blame the whole manga/anime influence that too many artists nowadays use as their primary influence. If they want to draw that kind of stuff, get a gig with a japanese comic.

••

I hope you're not saying that panel is Bagley? That would be REALLY depressing!

As I've been skimming through the various Masterworks volumes, I find it interesting that so many iconic Spider-Man poses have come from Romita, rather than Ditko.

Sure, Ditko gave us the quirky, insect-like movements (and a few iconic panel and cover poses), but Romita gave us one classic "money shot" after another (both in stories themselves, as well as in all the promotional and merchandising art he's done over the years).

Romita may not have been able to copy the quirkiness of Ditko, but I think he gave Spider-Man a heapin' helpin' of grace and elegance in his movements, while still retaining the character's inhuman flexibility, as established by Ditko.

The artist above is Humberto Ramos. I hated his art when I first saw it on IMPULSE, but it grew on me. Whatever his flaws, his panels are usually very dynamic, and you get a sense of movement in his work.

Funny, I'm of the opposite opinion. I really liked it on IMPULSE, but find it now, while very dynamic, nearly incomprehensible in telling a story.

I loved Steve Ditko on Spider-Man the best.

He looks like he's 12 feet tall in that pic.

I was a big Ramos fan when he had his couple of creator-owned books. I remember really liking the vampire one. When he went to Marvel, he started getting really, REALLY exagerrated with his anatomy and I didn't like it as much. That Spider-Man panel from the previous page actually looks painful.

••

There's a difference between "stylized" and bad. Unfortunately, it's a difference that has been badly damaged over the past few decades.

The issue that introduced me to Spider-Man. I can still remember reading that issue like it was yesterday...and somehow it was 27 years ago!

That Marcos Martin artwork is really something special.  The "blue image" is probably the best thing I've ever seen to come out of the execrable "Clone Saga!"

The Gwen Stacy pic is gut-wrenching.  Love the subtle body language of both characters.

There are so many things I could tell about Spider-Man, my all time favorite comics character, but I haven't so much time. Anyway... later today I'm going to begin my massive Spider-Man 50th anniversary re-reading*, which I suppose will keep me occupied this whole summer and beyond, so I'm sure I'll find a lot of things to write here.
++++++++++++

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts, Francesco!

Yeah, there's a special thrill whenever I see this title logo:

I was displeased back in the 90s when it changed to this:

My basic problem with that '90s logo is that it looks like it belongs to a villain.

Speaking of villains, I find it interesting that Ron Frenz's initial reaction to the black costume was to ask DeFalco who this new villain he'd be drawing was!

Man. Nobody drew that black costume better than Leonardi.

I know that sheet is from MARVEL AGE, but at a time when I never got to a comics shop, when I saw that 252 cover on the spinner rack at my usual convenience store, I was absolutely stunned. My whole comics world was turned upside-down.

And I love the black costume. I make no apologies for it. I love it.

yellow covered Peter's eyes better than white.

???

And let us not forget Romita's original, painted version!

Of course, ASM Annual # 9 reprinted the magazine's story, hence the reuse of the cover design.

+++++++++++++

Oh, how I hate the resurrection of Norman Osborn. But, at least it ended the Clone Saga.

And, of course, there's JR JR's gorgeous art!

Speaking of the Clone Saga, this is required reading for anyone interested in the behind-the-scenes story:

http://lifeofreillyarchives.blogspot.com/2008/03/part-1.html - http://lifeofreillyarchives.blogspot.com/2008/03/part-1.html

QUOTE: Speaking of the Clone Saga, this is required reading for anyone interested in the behind-the-scenes story: http://lifeofreillyarchives.blogspot.com/2008/03/part-1.html - http://lifeofreillyarchives.blogspot.com/2008/03/part-1.html

I wrote that with Glenn. Great times.

••

That was my return to Spider-Man, after a break that began around 1964.

When I saw this cover on the spinner rack my first thought was "They're killing Aunt May?" The issue itself was a bit of a disappointment, since I had no idea who Gwen Stacy was, and had only the dimmest memories of the Green Goblin.

••

Just wanted to say...

AR-HHHHGGGHHHH!!!!!

Way to go, Greg Kirkman! I recognised the imagery from Steve Ditko's "Wondrous Worlds of Doctor Strange" cover, too.

Speaking of Ditko, our host did a quite nice evocation of his work in the one Spectacular Spider-Man he did with Roger Stern.

Even the infamous inks of Vinnie Colletta couldn't hold back JB. He drew Spidey battling a baddie called the Ringer who formed little rings of matter from the dust in the air; our hero was leaping about from panel to panel, ducking and dodging, and sometimes rings would be formed about Spidey's arm or leg, but he'd whip the member in question out again, before the circular traps could solidify, by the next panel.

It was just the way Ditko would have done it.

...it started with this one...

It started for me with the next one. The 60's cartoon show had introduced me to the character, and this was my first Spider-Man comic. The cover drew me in (as they shoudl!) and, admittedly, it was mostly for the pictures, at first (hey, had just turned 6!).

I still have it. That cover is long gone...but it's still a good read.  

So, I've been listening to a number of Spider-Man podcasts, lately. One features a group of guys discussing and reviewing all of the character's appearances, in-depth, beginning with AF # 15.

The other is produced by some of the same guys, and is tackling the Clone Saga, specifically. I just listened to the episode where they covered the infamous SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN # 226--where Peter is "revealed" as the clone, and Ben Reilly the original (with Peter violently smacking the pregnant Mary Jane).

The question came up--what is the most controversial Spider-Man story of all time, the Clone Saga or ONE MORE DAY/BRAND NEW DAY?

Sure, there have been others (like THE OTHER and the TROUBLE miniseries, which revealed that Ben and Richard Parker were both banging May, and that she was Peter's real mother), but these two storylines are generally considered to be the standouts.

It's hard to say which one has proven more controversial. If the 'Net was in the 90s what it is now, the Clone Saga would surely have been as hotly debated a topic as the current books are.

And, amazingly enough, despite the years of controversy, the Clone Saga is now being collected into a massive series of trades!

The Clone Saga told us that the Spider-Man we'd known since 1975 was a clone. ONE MORE DAY featured Spider-Man making a deal with the Devil to negate his marriage (apparently so he could be free to have drunken, masked sex with the Black Cat. But I digress...).

Which is worse and more offensive? The world may never know.

••

There's an unintended symbolism in that cover.

Due to its essentially liquid nature, when glass breaks the pieces deform, making it impossible to fit them back together like a jigsaw puzzle.

Sort of like Spider-Man.

I just noticed something. I started on the latest ESSENTIAL volume of AMAZING ( Vol 11) over the past weekend. I'm absolutely flying thru it. Spider-Man's never been my favorite character ( one of them, but not the top) but I'd have to say it's easier reading that series* than just about any other series. What is it that makes it such a pleasure, I wonder.

* Not recent books.

Just to clarify what I said above, in case anyone's listening:

I meant to say that JB was influenced, even evoked Ditko in that Ringer story.

I didn't mean that he copied him, as in the material Mr. Kirkman and others posted.

••

Very, very, very briefly, Howard and I contemplated a scenario in which the Shaper of Worlds altered reality around Peter Parker. The ultimate house cleaning. Basically, we would have hit "rewind" and everything would have gone back to when Parker was in College. The rest of the Marvel Universe would have remained the same, and to add a touch of angst and agita, Peter would, for a while, remember how it was before the Shaper's intervention. Eventually, these memories would fade in the face of the new reality.

Howard and I realized two things, in approximately this order: there were too many writers working at Marvel who would do stories in their books to DELIBERATELY SABOTAGE what we were doing (sad but true), and, in the end, our story was too "cosmic" for a "street level" character like Spider-Man.

Does sound hauntingly familiar tho, doesn't it?

••

There was only one downside, for me, in that particular adventure.

When we were gearing up, Howard, editor Ralph Macchio and I agreed that the two Spider-Titles would be handled as separate books, not a bi-weekly. We decided that the one I was working on would concentrate mostly on Peter's job, while the other would focus more on life at home and the Bugle.

Almost unconsciously, tho, within a very short time the stories started splitting, part one in my book, part two in JR's. I found myself doing a lot of set-ups without conclusions. Which was less fulfilling than working on a Spider-Man book should have been!

+++

Still not as bad as when I was collecting comics in the early 90's. I tried to read Spider-Man and at this point I was still buying from newsagents but I don't think I once picked up a self contained issue...or even a part one for that matter. I eventually gave up trying.

••

You're not seriously suggesting that the frustration of not being able to BUY complete stories is in any way GREATER than the frustration of not being able to CREATE complete stories?

John Byrne wrote: ...Very, very, very briefly, Howard and I contemplated a scenario in which the Shaper of Worlds altered reality around Peter Parker...

Despite how the idea was too cosmic for Spider-Man, I much prefer the solution you two came up with over what we got: Peter Parker makes a deal with someone who, for pretty much all intent and purposes, the Devil (Mephisto), and the Devil wins. No matter what, I never see Peter making a deal with any villain like that, particularly a demonic entity. 

She looks like one of Mr. Rogers' puppets.

..........

Lady Elaine Fairchilde

I mentioned this in my initial post, but to actually see it...gah!!!!

And, of course, there's Spider-Man and the Black Cat getting it on while wearing their masks, and also getting it on in a hotel room they didn't pay for and being interrupted by newlyweds who did pay for the room.

To think--there was once a time where kids had to buy comics to get their superhero fix, and then track down XXX mags for their wanking material. Now, they can get it all in one convenient package!

wankwankwankwankwankwank

And he also apparently had a drunken one-nighter with his female roomie after Aunt May's wedding to J.J. Jameson, Sr, which later allowed the Chameleon (impersonating Pakrer) to also bang her.

So, apparently, deals with Mephisto aren't all bad, since he'll hook you up with lots of pussy...

...cats.

*Ahem.*

Please excuse me, but I find that sharing my pain makes me feel a little better.

Oh, how I wish that I could unsee and unread things. No more morbidly curious Google searches for me. I'm going back to my Masterworks, now...

I didn't find the scene with Aunt May and Jonah Sr objectionable. It was a good gag, and the worst we see is May's naked shoulders.

++++++++++

But is it something May Parker would do? Secretly hopping into bed with--and then marrying--Peter's employer's father?

Even Doctor Octopus had a long courtship with May before he popped the question!

I eagerly await a story where he tentacle-rapes May, Manga-style, because she never put out.

++++++++++++++

The Black Cat stuff was a bit too far into PG-13 territory for the title in my opinion.

++++++++++++

And are these things Peter Parker would do? The casual, masked, drunken (or not, since it was apparently ginger ale) sex? Sneaking into a booked hotel room to get it on with the Cat?

The actual sexual content is one thing (...and not suited for Spider-Man comics, I think. Previous stories dealing with such matters have mostly been much more sly and all-ages friendly.).

The actions of these specific characters are another thing altogether. These don't come anywhere close to being the characters I know.

Why is the pillow glued to the wall in the roommate sex panel?

+++++++++++++++

Maybe he had a web dream.

There was no secretiveness about it. Peter was out of the loop because he'd been on an adventure with the Fantastic Four in another dimension. Whilst only hours had passed from his perspective, he arrived home to find that weeks had gone by.
++++++++++

Okay, fair enough. But the May Parker I know would be deeply worried if her beloved nephew were missing for weeks. Was that the case, here? Or was she too busy knocking dentures (with a guy she'd apparently met not too long before) to notice?

That was JJJ's dad?!?  How frickin' old is the guy? 90?

( And none of that shit belongs in a Spider-Man comic).

••

When Roger Stern and I were doing CAPTAIN AMERICA in the late Seventies, we flashed back to a young Jonah as a reporter getting one of the first photos of Cap in action. That would have been about 40 years earlier, and assuming Jonah to be in his early 20s at the time, that would have put him in his 60s in "present day" Marvel. Which seems about right given the apparent age of his adult son.

••

I slipped a very subtle reference to that story into the first issue of CHAPTER ONE.

QUOTE: That page is actually from a 1962 Strange Tales (#97).

Yeah, yeah I'd say that is pretty strange.

Charlie Brown also got to kick the football in the 1981 animated special, It's Magic, Charlie Brown.

++

Charlie Brown also got to kick the football in the 1981 animated special, It's Magic, Charlie Brown.

••

The PEANUTS Valentine special also showed us the Little Red Haired Girl.

Sometimes people make mistakes.

Regardless, the PEANUTS strip above is surely not "canonical."  All in good fun... no problems with Charlie Brown kicking the football in that one.

Those vibrant colors remind me of a rant* I enjoyed a few weeks back about how the advances of HD filming in comic book movies are offset by this trend to de-saturate the costume colors.

I'd pay very good money to see above costume in movie.  Exactly as is.

*Was either Nerdist or SModcast, can't recall.

Regardless, the PEANUTS strip above is surely not "canonical."  All in good fun... no problems with Charlie Brown kicking the football in that one.

++++++++++

I agree. It doesn't seem any different to me than a convention sketch or a "what if?" story. Just a fun little way of having Spider-Man guest-star in a non-canonical strip, or possibly just a fun one-off by Romita, imitating Schultz.

Several She-Hulks? Aunt May wearing Iron Man armour? I didn't know about those, kind of glad I'm not buying much Marvel nowadays. You can have too much of a good thing.

I posted a topic about the He-Man movie in the movies thread. I liked that franchise very much, it's one of my favourite of all time. That said, wouldn't have enjoyed it if there were 3 or 4 He-Men, multiple Skeletors, etc. Each character in the He-Man franchise is unique (okay, He-Man has an evil double), but that's the way I like it.

Back in the day, one of the ways to distinguish Marvel from DC was that each Marvel character was unique. Oh, sure, there were two Human Torches -- but not when Johnny Storm first appeared in FF 1. Stan and Jack were not building "continuity" with early Marvel/Timely/Atlas product. That would come quite a bit later. And the Hulk was created in a rather shameless attempt to cash in on the popularity of the Thing -- but originally that failed and the Hulk's book only lasted six issues.

DC, on the other hand, from very early on, set about relentlessly "de-uniquing" their characters. Superman was "sole survivor of the doomed planet Krypton", and they respected that for a while, even as Superboy was introduced into the mix (same character, just younger). But soon there was a cousin, a dog, a cat, a horse -- a city of one billion people!!

The Flash took about eight minutes to develop a kid version of himself -- a separate character, this time.

Green Lantern was relaunched in the Fifties, and the whole CONCEPT of the relaunch was that he was not unique. Ditto for Hawkman.

On and on. And now, it's the same at Marvel. Almost PATHOLOGICALLY the same, in fact. As if "creators" at Marvel and DC are somehow COMPELLED to copy each others mistakes.

It seems that few people can resist the temptation to de-unique any character, comic book or otherwise.

A lot of TV shows have done it. Was KITT a one-of-a-kind car in KNIGHT RIDER? Yes, until KARR, the original prototype, appeared. In AIRWOLF, the billion-dollar helicopter was a one-of-a-kind chopper - until it was revealed there was an earlier version. And another version later on, in the fourth season. And if $6m wasn't enough for one bionic man, there was a second one costing $7m, plus a bionic dog, too.

Perhaps some people just cannot resist the temptation. I wish they would keep characters special, though.

One thing I have noticed a lot of fans seem to love to "create" is copies of various Marvel and DC characters, so it would not be surprising to find them doing the same thing when actually offered a chance to do so. But I think there's a different slice of the fan mentality at work, too.

One way Marvel cashed in on, to multiply their characters without "de-uniquing", was to put them in multiple titles. Spider-Man got multiple titles. Via reprints, at first, the FF, the X-Men, the Avengers got multiple titles. But one of the things I noticed when I joined the industry, in the Seventies, was that some of the more anal fans complained about multiple titles, as they had trouble "fitting them together". Cottage industries arose, in fact, based on figuring out where all the pieces of the "jigsaw puzzle" fit. "When did Spider-Man have time to link up with Daredevil in TRAM UP if he was fighting Doc Ock in AMAZING and Kraven in SPECTACULAR?" "Well, if this happened between these two panels, and that happened as the page was turning here, and. . . "

In the end, it's easier to just have multiple iterations of the characters.

And then put THEM in multiple titles!!!!

If that is true, then how depressing! And what a strange mentality to have.

Personally, and I'm sure others here will say the same, I never bothered myself about fitting it all together. If Thor appeared in three titles in one month, and had a cameo in a Spider-Man title, then so what? Just because, say, three books are released in the same month, doesn't mean the adventures all took place at the same time.

Sometimes you just have to go with the flow and enjoy each and every tale on it's own merits.

The contextual evidence is usually very much against this notion (especially in these days of "decompressed storytelling"). The FF may be in part three of an adventure which, for them, takes maybe half a day, while Spider-Man is in part two of an adventure that has so far covered several weeks of his life. Obviously, these cannot be "moments" that happen at the same time.

I did what I thought to be a subtle parody of this, in an issue of SUPERMAN where is powers were running out of control. When it came time for his super-hearing to be on the fritz, I had the editorial office gather balloons from all the books that came out the same month. Unfortunately, rather than seeing this as my little "joke", many readers apparently took it as confirmation that all those moments were happening at exactly the same time.

QUOTE: The problem of "fitting it all together" -- and you might be surprised to learn who some of the people are who have this bug! -- seems in part to spring from a parallel notion, that being that all the books that come out in a given week HAPPEN in that week.

I can't understand why anyone would even want to fit it all together.

Suppose one issue of Spider-Man has him chasing a burglar across town, capturing him and handing him over to the cops, before going to change into Peter Parker and help Aunt May. That may equate to one night in Spider-Man's book.

Over in a Thor comic, released that same month, Thor could be trapped in a demonic realm for weeks. So despite both books being released in the same month, the adventures can't be happening at the same time.

Really, it's quite bizarre to even expect it to happen. A three-part FF adventure, which from our perspective takes 3 months to be told, could well equate to one night in New York. On the other side of the coin, one Spider-Man issue in a month could equate to several months in Spider-Man's world.

I always keep it simple if anyone gets too pedantic when discussing "real time". If Spider-Man gets beaten up by The Rhino in an alley in one issue and then awakens and recovers in the next issue, well it may take one month between stories for us, but I doubt Spider-Man spent one whole month lying in an alley.

Incidentally, it seems that the Hulk's entire classic supporting cast have now become Hulk-like monsters.

Rick Jones became a new Abomination, called "A-Bomb".

General Ross is the Red Hulk.

Betty Ross is the Red She-Hulk.

And the Hulk himself has a Hulk-like son.

Surely, these developments would have been laughed off as bad fanfic or bad "What If?" stories back in the day, right? And they would never have been printed in actual, canonical, professionally-published Marvel comics, right?

Remember the days when there was only ONE Hulk, who would become furious at even the idea of there being any other Hulk, or Hulk-like creature?

Today, these other Hulks are fully-canonical story developments, and are the basis of action figures and the like.

Up is down. Black is white. Left is right. Everything is wrong and absurd. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic.

QUOTE: Surely, these developments would have been laughed off as bad fanfic or bad "What If?" stories back in the day, right? And they would never have been printed in actual, canonical, professionally-published Marvel comics, right?

Indeed. The "What If?" title used to be the perfect place for such stories, but it seems that, with a lack of "What If?" now, all the crazy stuff is in the mainstream books now. It's depressing.

 It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic.

...........................

It's a joke. I've read interviews in which the writers say they had a "DUH" moment.  "Why didn't we think of this sooner?"  The reality is every writer from Stan Lee on DID think of it!  Along with most comics readers in 7th grade!  They just didn't use it in a story because it's pityfully lame and if they did try to write it in a story, it would've gotten shot down by editorial.  At least before about 1995.  They actually think they are being cutting edge and provocative, when in reality they are writing story arcs that wouldn't have a chance of making the cut in years passed.

I'm not talking just about the Hulk Corps.  but Spider-Man and Wolverine being Avengers, I know there are many other examples but I've blocked them out. 

How has this happened?  How did the bar drop so low?

1963:

1977:

2011:

At least they didn't bring back Bucky as a porn star named "F***y".

••

There's probably another factor at work here, besides a lack of creativity. When I joined Marvel in the 1970s, a general mantra from "creators" was "I am not going to create anything for Marvel! I don't want to give them the next Spider-Man!"

Generally, we were well aware that the people making this claim were highly unlikely to "create the next Spider-Man" (and nobody noticed that "the next Spider-Man", Wolverine, had already been created!). But it sounded lofty, and was a good disguise for creative bankruptcy and/or laziness.

Now that properties are being sucked up by Hollywood in huge quantities, it seems not altogether unlikely that this kind of thinking is once again informing the "creative" process. Put Spider-Man in the FF, and the fanboys sit up and take notice -- and you haven't risked "losing" some brilliant creation of your own!

••

Don't joke! That's exactly how Karen Page's descent into porn started!

Don`t forget all the people wearing Iron Man armour now,even Pepper! Not to mention that they publish 2 Invincible Iron Man issues a month,but i bet the story doesn`t advance twice as fast!

...cue next year's company-wide relanch--MARVEL-X, where all our favorite characters are reimagined as pornstars.

* Be awestruck by the prowess of Mr. Fantastic, Freak of C***!

* Shudder at the scat-tastic antics of the Hulk and the Thing in "Two Monsters, One Cup"!

* Be thrilled when Wanda Maximoff takes on all of the Avengers--past and present--in "Deeper than Scarlet"!

* Be amazed when Spider-Man shows off just how much sticky web-fluid he can eject from his shooter with just the slightest pressure of any finger!

Seriously, just how far away from this becoming a reality are we?

Gaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

I hate to imagine what The Silver Surfer rides on.

What would Reed Richards name be in this reality?

(There! I admit to knowing the name of a porn star. Or two. Or three...)

If Sue Storm was a virgin in this reality, she could be The Invincible Hyman.

+++++++++++

Even in the "real" Marvel Universe, she's still the Invisible Hymen!

Ohhhh, man.

Mebbe we should get back to celebrating freaking Spider-Man's anniversary, before this goes too far beyond too far!

••

On THIS Forum??

I thought similar things myself, Ronald. I did a topic a while back asking about the appeal of novels - and several people sold me on the idea.

I did have an adventure gamebook novel featuring Spider-Man in the 80s, plus a Spider-Man/Hulk novel, which I did enjoy. Perhaps it is an acquired taste, but definitely a taste worth having!

I don't know if it'd be different for a person picking up a superhero novel who had never read a single comic in his life, but as a superhero fan, I can say that since I've read some novels, my own experiences of comics along with my imagination when reading the novels have helped make the experience positive.

QUOTE: I kind of prefer Spider-Man to scuttle a little bit against normal foes, like back in the Ditko Enforcers days.

So do I.

Speaking as someone who likes the 70s TV series - and it lived up to my nostalgia when I saw it recently - I did, as a kid, tune in hoping to see The Lizard or Green Goblin. In the same sort of way that I'd tune into the Hulk series as a kid, wondering when the US Army or The Leader would tune in. Ah, the expectations of being a kid, eh?

However, objectively speaking, I did like some of the street level stories. Yes, Spider-Man was less powerful in the TV series, when fighting thugs in unarmed combat. However, I liked some episodes, including the two-parter "The Deadly Dust" where Robert Alda played a villain who, along with his henchmen, had stolen an atomic bomb. Lots of great fights and stunts in the episodes.

Lots of great fights and stunts in the episodes.

++++++++++

The Spider-stuntman hanging from the helicopter, in particular, is a memorable moment.

QUOTE: The Spider-stuntman hanging from the helicopter, in particular, is a memorable moment.

Indeed. I wouldn't have done that stunt, no matter how much they paid me.

When some people criticize the stunts of the series, they often focus on the ones that really were bad (such as Parker climbing down that house in the pilot movie). However, there were some good ones, such as in the pilot where Spider-Man leaps onto the ceiling to fight those warriors, or where he scares off a lion in one episode. I also liked the fight he had with those two thugs in "The Deadly Dust" where he fought them on the set of a Western.

Say what you will about the flaws of the TV series, but those wall-crawling scenes still thrill me in a way that the CG-laden Raimi movies don't.

There's just something intrinsically exciting about a real stuntman hanging dozens--or hundreds--of feet above the ground on the side of a real building.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxKMC_wrPdA - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxKMC_wrPdA

I mean, he's climbing on the friggin' EMPIRE STATE BUILDING! A real guy!! In a Spider-Man suit!!!

As snazzy as today's effects are, on some fundamental level, we know they're fake, be they fully-CG, or a stuntman shot against a greenscreen.

The TV show had a real guy hanging on real buildings, and it works.

Greg, I completely agree with you. I've been thinking and saying it for years.

I'm not the biggest fan of CGI. As you say, on some fundamental level, we know they're fake. I know suspension of disbelief is important, but there's just something better about a man in a costume doing stunts than there is with a CGI Spider-Man.

I feel that way about a lot of things. I'd rather see a werewolf film featuring make-up and special effects (AN AMERICAN WEREWOLF IN LONDON) than a CGI werewolf. I like the 80s series AIRWOLF, about a super helicopter, which used real helicopters and model shots - I suspect a remake would feature CGI helicopters and jets, which wouldn't be the same.

I know the web-slinging shots weren't that impressive in the series, although I understood they were expensive and time-consuming to film. They don't exactly get me excited, but they're still decent shots using a real person, so I prefer those to CGI, too.

I know suspension of disbelief is important, but there's just something better about a man in a costume doing stunts than there is with a CGI Spider-Man.

++++++++++

I've put a lot of thought into this. The inherent problem with Spider-Man in live-action is this:

The comic character's exceptional agility, flexibility, and insect-like movements/poses makes it very hard to get him right.

Make him move too much like he does in the comics, and the audience will instinctively know it's CG, since a real person can't move like that.

On the other hand, use a stuntman almost exclusively, and he won't be able to move or pose quite the way that the "real" Spider-Man does!

The train battle in the second film comes pretty close for me to being a solid Spider-Man action sequence that doesn't look too cartoony (for the most part). Some of the moments are too cartoony, but there are a few moments (bits of 1:25-1:30, 2:05-2:35) that look pretty much spot-on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z00fTwhmYX0 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z00fTwhmYX0

What you say makes sense, Greg.

It's a little bit similar with the Hulk. I liked Lou Ferrigno's Hulk, the build was certainly there and he looked impressive, but on a 70s TV budget, you just couldn't have him leaping through the air and throwing tanks around. A CGI Hulk can do that, but for someone like me who isn't keen on CGI, well it doesn't entirely feel the same.

Ok as of this morning (my time in my part of the world) I have read EVERY since Spider-Man comic in order from the start up until the issues that are still on the comic book racks including major guest star issues (though not stories where Spider-Man might only appear in 2 panels of a six issue story).

What a journey and what a mixed bag of the good, the bad and the incredibly ugly!

Highlights:

All the Stan Lee issues (I now have my Spider-Man Omnibus signed by the man himself when he finally came to Australia this year) and pretty much all issues until about the mid 70s when things seemed to become I suppose less exciting to me.

The Ron Frenz issues

I've fallen in love with Sal Busema's artwork on that massive run he did which made some very ordinary stories at least pretty to look at!

The JR JR issues (later ones) feature some of the best art I've ever seen.

Really enjoyed our host's run, even more after the very ordinary Clone Saga and aftermath stories.

Brand New Day was quite good and a breath of fresh air at first espcially as the mid 2000 stories around Civil War were very dreary (and boring)

I won't really go into the lowlights but I'd honestly say I at least 'liked' or 'loved' about half the run and 'disliked' or hated the other half.

So I've done Fantastic Four and Spider-Man: I may attempt X-Men next though up to a point this time as opposed to the whole thing. Otherwise I'll be reaching retirement age by the time I'm done with it!

I suppose this thread is as good as any to mention I caught Spider-Man: Turn Off the Dark on Broadway this afternoon, as a birthday present from my wife, to go along with our NYC day trip.

Surely the most bizarro Spider-Man interpretation yet... not great, not convinced it's even very good, but the stunts & aerial work were certainly a rush and well done.  But good grief, so many liberties were taken (the Green Iguoblin being one of them... and honestly, Kraven the Hunter was created in a lab???), and the tone and humor were all over the map, that it almost makes the Raimi films look overwhelming faithful by default!

The two leads (Peter & MJ) were competant & charming, but the songbook was mostly a snoozer and the dialogue was painfully mediocre... not an ounce of the 'ol Stan Lee wit, pep & pizzaz to help keep things lively.  Really too bad, 'cause the spectacle of it all was something to behold, and helps speak, in a way, to Greg Kirkman's comments above about real stuntmen doing the Spidey handiwork.

I still can't decide which moment is the nadir of the Clone Saga--

Peter being "revealed" as the clone and smacking his pregnant wife...

...or MAXIMUM CLONAGE: OMEGA, the ultimate expression of how insane and marketing-driven the storyline had become, and a contender for the worst Spider-Man comic ever produced. Complete with holofoil cover!

If you're interested in seeing how the Clone Saga ran off the rails and you have a lot of spare reading time, you can check this out:

http://lifeofreillyarchives.blogspot.com/ - http://lifeofreillyarchives.blogspot.com/

Its been a couple of years since I read thru it, but it was rather informative.

Interestingly, it was after this (and after reading Greg's excellent analysis GREAT POWER, GREATER IRRESPONSIBILITY from a few years back) that led me to purchasing the Marvel Essential Volumes of Amazing Spider-Man, so I could finally read all of the classic stores once and for all (I had read many of them, but never in order from the very beginning onward).

++++++++++

Looking back on that, I'm a wee bit embarrassed by the whole thing. It was intended as a rebuttal to JMS' dredging up of Gwen and turning her into a lying, cheating whore in SINS PAST, the story that got me to quit modern comics.

In retrospect, it kinda comes off as being written by someone who's obsessed with Gwen and her status as "sacrificial virgin" in Spider-lore, when my point was actually that writers should just let her go and leave it alone!

Spewing out that essay was a very cathartic experience, though! I'm sure I could do a much much better and more balanced job, were I to write it today.

It's okay that he hit that pregnant woman, Greg - they weren't really married, they were just living together. Thanks Mephisto, for making Spider-Man NOT a wife-beater!

++++++++++

I find it interesting that Mephisto was considered as the "out" for the Clone Saga (involving a time loop that allowed for Peter AND Ben to both be the genuine article), but that idea was nixed because he was deemed inappropriate as a Spider-villain.

Cut to 2008, and ONE MORE DAY...

This little story comes to mind, although it was at least done as a (hopefully!) non-canon PSA giveaway:

That's real?!?  How has Bendis not used Skip yet?

And why does Skip have gray hair?

••

Why? Why not a friend? If it was an anti-drug message, would it "make sense" for Peter to be a meth-head? If it was about tolerance of homosexuals, should Peter come out?

I did the cover for that particular book, and only later did I find out it was Peter who was the victim. I thought it was unnecessarily sensationalistic. Peter has enough crap in his life --- Uncle's death was his fault, remember? He doesn't need more, even in a good cause.

Look at this cover:

An acre of space an inch or so below Spider-Man's balloon on the left, but they paste it up to cover his FOOT in the corner symbol!!

••

Dunno what's worse. That that POS appeared on a professionally published Spider-Man comic ---- or that TERRY AUSTIN inked it!!!

That isn't really a Spider-Man comic is it?  Just a Peter Parker look-a-like right?

+++++++++

Yes and no, in that order.

Spider-Man tells the abuse story of a young boy (seen on the above-posted page), which helps another young boy deal with his own abuse. Spider-Man realizes that telling the story has helped him deal with his own abuse (as he was indeed the boy in the story).

But, hey! Nice cover!

I use a version of my SUPERMAN IV analogy for the clone saga. It's
terrible but it's still a superhero comic book. There was a period in the
past ten years when Marvel stopped publishing superhero comic
books.

++++++++

Can't disagree with that.

The Clone Saga did, in fact, have some interesting stories and ideas. Compared to recent developments, it's akin to the Lee/Ditko run.

The bar does just get lower and lower, doesn't it? Did anyone ever think that the Spider-Man mythos could reach a point lower than the one which the Clone Saga took it to?

I did the cover for that particular book, and only later did I find out it was Peter who was the victim. I thought it was unnecessarily sensationalistic. Peter has enough crap in his life --- Uncle's death was his fault, remember? He doesn't need more, even in a good cause.

++++++++

Hey, at least it isn't canon, right? If it is, then SPIDEY SUPER STORIES must be, too! Complete with stuff like Thanos' helicopter with his name on it!

On the subject of worst Spider-Man comics of all time, the Gwen Stacy/Norman Osborn affair storyline was the first time I'd stopped reading Amazing Spider-Man since I'd started collecting twenty-something years earlier. 
++++++++++++++++

Don't forget (or, please DO) Spider-Man kissing Gwen and Osborn's pre-teen, unnaturally-aged, lookalike daughter.

The sheer awfulness and contempt for decency of those stories aside, the thing that proved to me beyond all shadow of a doubt that the inmates were running the asylum was this:

After the fan s***storm unleashed by SINS PAST, a popular fansite writer wrote the following articles...

http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/GreenwithEvil/DeFloweringGwen .html - http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/GreenwithEvil/DeFloweringGwen .html

http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/GreenwithEvil/CultofGwen.html - http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/GreenwithEvil/CultofGwen.html

...in which he posited that the...incident...took place when Gwen went to thank Osborn off-panel for saving her and her father's life at the end of ASM # 61.

Marvel took this idea, and inserted it into various post-2004 editions of the OFFICIAL HANDBOOK, as seen here, in this wiki which reuses the text from the published OHOTMU comics:

http://marvel.com/universe/Gwen_Stacy - http://marvel.com/universe/Gwen_Stacy

That's right. Marvel took a fan theory and made it canonical so as to justify that story.

My nutty essay went to great lengths to show that SINS PAST doesn't work purely in terms of anal-retentive continuity and chronology. But, the bottom line is that it doesn't work, period.

It is a perfect example of the "archaeology" effect seen in modern comics, where writers dig up old stories for the shock value of twisting them around, or telling us that everything we know is wrong. And Gwen Stacy has been trotted out again and again over the years, for good and ill. Did Marvel really think this was a good idea?

Well, I suppose it was, since it got me to quit! Thankfully, I didn't have to (directly) suffer through THE OTHER, CIVIL WAR, etc.

++++++++++++++++

Runner-up is probably Maximum Carnage, a 14-part crossover series that marked the first time that I realized that just because a story is published by Marvel, it doesn't mean that the story had to be told.  It could have been a fun four-parter running through a single title, but it took forever for anything to happen, and the payoff wasn't remotely proportional to the page count.
+++++++++++++

That story was certainly the first big clue that marketing was running the Spider-books, by that point.

That's how the Clone Saga went from a six-month story designed to install Ben Reilly as the new, single Spider-Man, to a three-year story that meandered endlessly.

QUOTE: stuff like Thanos' helicopter with his name on it!

HA HA HA!

Remember when you didn't have to ignore large chunks of Spider-Man's history in order to enjoy the character?

Remember a time when even bad stories didn't need to be ignored, because they weren't a big deal, and didn't completely warp the characters and the mythos?

••

More of a lateral move. Solid inks, just not really spider-inks.

••

When Chris and I were doing MARVEL TEAM-UP we discussed "retelling" the Storm appearance that had recently been in SPIDEY, showing what "really happened".

••

Strange art instruction on that cover. I was told that Spider-Man was to be swinging over the city, carrying the kid, BUT THEIR BODIES MUST NOT BE TOUCHING!

Someone at Marvel enjoys Norman Osborn cuckolding Peter Parker.

++++++++++

That particular phrasing creeps me out on levels I didn't know I had.

Did anyone, in their wildest dreams, ever image such a development back in the 60s or 70s?

Osborn cuckolding Parker.

Harry Osborn, maybe. But Norman? Guuuuhhh.

Speaking of Controversial Cuckolding Comics, there's also the bit in the Wolfman run which subtly indicates that Peter was banging Betty Brant-Leeds after she ran away from Ned in Europe. During their honeymoon.

But at least that was subtle, and still somewhat open to interpretation.

Unlike Osborn's "O-face".

Spider-Man having an affair with a married woman is not exactly an idea that thrills me, either. Peter--the Peter I know, at least--would certainly spend many tortured thought balloons grappling with that sort of thing.

Despite his prior history with Betty, I can't see someone raised with such strong morals, and who is as neurotic and worry-prone as Parker, entering into an affair like that. A sexual affair, in particular.

If you're interested in seeing how the Clone Saga ran off the rails and you have a lot of spare reading time, you can check this out:

http://lifeofreillyarchives.blogspot.com/ - http://lifeofreillyarchives.blogspot.com/

Its been a couple of years since I read thru it, but it was rather informative.

I'm up to Part 23 right now.  

Once I started reading it I couldn't stop.  It's quite a tale and has proven - so far - to be better reading than the entire Clone Saga itself!

I remember when I first saw the Life of Reilly blog and, while it did take me a few days to read thru it all, it was rather engrossing. It was like watching a car wreck in slow motion; of course, I say this with knowledge of everything that came afterwards.

I think its definitely the big turning point in Spider-Man's history. I was a big fan of Spidey, but bailed during the early days of the Clone Saga and I've never gone back. It saddens me, because of my love for the character, but I'm happy I missed the Norman Osborn banging Gwen Stacy claptrap.

How I miss Spider-Man...

Yes, LIFE OF REILLY is fascinating reading. And rather nostalgic, much as I hate to admit it.

I'd like to reiterate--my prime reading years were during the Clone Saga. I 12 was when Peter was "revealed" as the clone, and was really upset about the whole mess even back then (Reilly taking over as Spider-Man, Osborn's return from the dead, etc.).

I will say, however, that Marvel did a good job...at first. I was way more interested in the adventures of Ben Reilly than I was in the "I am the Spider" stuff going on with Peter Parker at the beginning of the storyline, and pretty much only bought the Reilly books.

...which was the whole idea, wasn't it?

Nearly every story written since the introduction of Venom on some level or another, I believe, has betrayed the nature of the hero in the Spider-Man titles. Brand New Day itself was utter and complete garbage, no question, but in some respects, it did herald a "return to form" for the basic premises of Spider-Man. For those who respect and enjoy those premises, Brand New Day was a breath of fresh air. As for it resulting in new material worth reading, well, I'm still waiting...

I'm getting tired of always agreeing with you, Brian!

For whatever it's worth, Greg, I never get tired of it! :-)

"I will say, however, that Marvel did a good job...at first. I was way more interested in the adventures of Ben Reilly than I was in the "I am the Spider" stuff going on with Peter Parker at the beginning of the storyline, and pretty much only bought the Reilly books.

...which was the whole idea, wasn't it?"

I agree. Ben Reilly was more Peter Parker than the real one. Of course, in those days, I wondered why couldn't they simply tell stories featuring Peter Parker acting as Peter Parker. Tom DeFalco, to name one of the group, was surely able to do it.

I gave Brand New Day a chance but I dropped it entirely with the Lizard storyline from a few years ago (the final result just bothered me too much). Marvel under Joe Q has bragged that they don't need a complete universe reboot but why not do that instead of a ridiculous premise like One More Day? But I gave it a shot and I just didn't care for it. Slott's a good writer it's just a culmination of things that I didn't like built up to the point where I stopped buying it.

The line work on Spider-Mans costume on the cover of the Spectacular Spider-Man no 158 seems a bit off.

See i answered myself.

If you're interested in seeing how the Clone Saga ran off the rails and you have a lot of spare reading time, you can check this out:

http://lifeofreillyarchives.blogspot.com/ - http://lifeofreillyarchives.blogspot.com/

Its been a couple of years since I read thru it, but it was rather informative.

I'm up to Part 23 right now.

Once I started reading it I couldn't stop. It's quite a tale and has proven - so far - to be better reading than the entire Clone Saga itself!"

I hadn't ever seen this before, and am engrossed with it now. Thanks for the link

The green-and-purple combo also mean that could just be the Impossible Man giving Spidey and his pals a hard time!

"If you're interested in seeing how the Clone Saga ran off the rails and you have a lot of spare reading time, you can check this out:

http://lifeofreillyarchives.blogspot.com/ -