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Dave Phelps
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posted: 09 September 2022 at 12:14am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Well, if we're going to keep bringing up Clinton, some recent articles of interest:


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Peter Martin
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Posted: 09 September 2022 at 12:29am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Official statement by Comey from 2016:

"From the group of 30,000 e-mails returned to the State Department, 110 e-mails in 52 e-mail chains have been determined by the owning agency to contain classified information at the time they were sent or received. Eight of those chains contained information that was Top Secret at the time they were sent; 36 chains contained Secret information at the time; and eight contained Confidential information, which is the lowest level of classification. Separate from those, about 2,000 additional e-mails were “up-classified” to make them Confidential; the information in those had not been classified at the time the e-mails were sent."

Guess Comey just got it wrong if Hillary says zero emails were classified?


Edited to add source: LINK


Edited by Peter Martin on 09 September 2022 at 12:29am
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 09 September 2022 at 12:39am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

And to reiterate once again, the headline stuff sounds bad from that. Top secret. Confidential. Classified.

The actual details though weren't as bad as it sounds. It was sloppy, rather than criminal.

Which is not to say that Trump hasn't committed serious or criminal acts. But the lesson I took from the Clinton thing was how publicly available information can remain officially classified in these documents. In the case of Clinton there was the US use of drones. It was reported in the press. Everyone knew it. But the US intelligence agencies considered any knowledge of drone operation as classified.

This is why I keep stressing how you just don't know until more information is available.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 09 September 2022 at 5:58pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

A key truth is shown in "classified information at the time they were sent or received" as my understanding is that a lot of this was inherent in emails setting up phone conference times, once having occurred no longer being potentially dangerous on a private email or server that could conceivably have been hacked (but was not). I'm not saying this was all, but it was a major percentile of the gross numbers of emails bandied about. So what you are left with after that trifle, and email addresses of others in important positions existing in the bodies, is perhaps what Clinton is claiming as zero; the handful of more serious potentially compromising, but not compromised, items. Carelessness, period, end of? I would rate Comey's declarations on investigating and reopening investigation as actually damaging, and thus far worse, for which his excuse was that everyone was sure Hilary was going to win including himself (oopsie). His announcement under pressure to say an investigation was reopening due to apparent new details, while not divulging then ongoing investigations into Trump's Russian and other compromising ties, obviously did have some effect on voting beyond even the doctored photo visible at most supermarket check-outs via the National Enquirer 'newspaper' during voting of a Hilary appearing gravely ill.

I have been waiting for more solid information on Trump's documents, but thanks to the ruling of a need for appointing of a 'Special Master', and halt to all investigations meanwhile, it may be a long wait... or possibly we may never know more detail! Obviously they bank upon the traditional winning back of seats in the imminent midterms. Again the future hangs by a slender thread thanks to people continually bending and abetting for a well documented conman, liar and racist. Every tiny delay, every small favor insinuated as somehow 'owed'... this was never a public servant anymore than a remotely qualified person for highest office. I cringe to imagine his official portrait hung alongside anyone but other faux successful businessmen, most of whom have eventually had to wear orange not on their skin when finally caught out and held to account.

Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 09 September 2022 at 6:02pm
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Michael Casselman
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Joined: 14 January 2006
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Posted: 09 September 2022 at 7:43pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Physical, hardcopy files have strict retention and security requirements. When you're read-on, you get the training and sign-off on what the repercussions for violations involve. Message traffic doesn't just mysteriously jump from a Secret or Top Secret system to an Unclassified system unless there's gross negligence or deliberate tampering and disregard for procedures. Doesn't matter if you're Clinton (and Abedin), Trump, Chelsea Manning or anyone else that's made the news. Lock 'em ALL up. Anyone who knew about it, aided, abetted, assisted, or acted as apologist for them can sit in cells next to them. These cases often have collateral damage. Even if the 'top' person manages to squirm out of charges (at least the worst of them), they didn't act alone. There's always people who looked the other way, or declined to take actions to stop leaks, removal of materials, etc.



Edited by Michael Casselman on 09 September 2022 at 7:51pm
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 10 September 2022 at 2:17am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Equating Hilary Clinton's (while overlooking Powell's similar) carelessness with her personal communications that potentially could have been exploited but were not, and a massive breach of an even higher placed official deliberately not following any established rules, lying about complying, and still lying, obfuscating and obstructing further, then whining, pointing at Hilary, claiming everything is unfair... it really has got to end! Lock her up was never a real possibility, even with newly Trump admin created regulations hoping to help in just that.... but locking him up, or at least making sure this massive security risk according to federal investigators back in mid 2016, is permanently prevented from such access and privileges, is long overdue. What Trump did having private phones and accounts after Hilary's supposed crime alone is far worse not just because of the higher office and level of material involved but because after her reprimands and excessive questioning there really should've been zero excuse for it. Nobody looked the other way on investigating her, they went overboard, effecting an election not a year later but imminently, but someone is still looking the other way on Trump's private devices! We only found out some of the information he was loose with once it turned up in Russian news media! The Valerie Plame business with Novak is small potatoes next to what we already have documented on Trump never minding Hilary's grossly inflated email server 'scandal'. Then again, so was all the b.s. on her idjit husband fooling around with an intern and lying about that personal garbage... the golden JFK would've been utterly crucified if his behaviors while in the white house were known, and it would be equally pointless and backwards and stupid to have done so. Here we have Trump continually and recklessly effecting many lives and his country negatively and being given a pass to squeak on by to only get more outrageous and brazen. What would be in it for anybody to destroy a Clinton or a Kennedy? But this guy is an active and unending threat that ignores all regulation and legal norms with utter impunity to date. At some point there actually can be no stopping, and waiting for midterms to come out differently then they have the last number of decades seems a poor plan.

Just deal with Trump, and what we know he has done should be enough to restore some order and confidence with real consequences to him finally. A lot of harm has been caused where allies will no longer trust the U.S. after what he has done; that is not alleged nor exaggerated. Any further failure to deal with him is just going to cement that in place. I doubt Hilary would ever run for any office again, but he and his deplorables are crowing almost constantly about 2024!
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Geoffrey Langford
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Posted: 11 September 2022 at 2:05am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

It's important to clarify what a "classified document" is.  These documents aren't necessarily nuclear secrets or answers to Area 51, etc -- everyone working in Government has a security clearance.  A US postal/mail clerks security clearance is higher than a library grounds keeper but may not be as high as the grounds keeper for the white house.  IRS Criminal Investigators have a higher security clearance than their counter parts in other Federal law enforcement agencies due to the nature of the documents and information they routinely view in cases.  Working on special taskforces often gets this clearance bumped up so all parties can view and discuss the materials being viewed.  Presidents and Senators etc have the highest of security clearances - especially the president.  But the pendulum swings the other way too -- not just for viewing -- but for creating documents.  The president will routinely CREATE classified documents in the course of their every day work - simply because it could be a communication between two people with the highest level of clearance -- it means no one of a lower level is allowed to read/view.

Many, many, many "classified" documents are shred worthy, nothing more than landfill.

But -- when these people leave office, "classified" material willingly and unwillingly goes with them.  Now, there are protocols in place to allow for this via the proper storage of documents etc.  

I promise you, the probable cause for the raid on Maralago was largely based on in proper and unauthorized storage of classified material -- NOT based on content of said materials.   Now, after the raid, the witch hunt begins to find the smoking gun that Trump had actual sensitive, national secret level documents AND that they were kept in such a manner a reasonable person would consider it a threat to national security.   But emails to Mike Pence sharing dad jokes stored in a secured room/office with cameras and Secret Service on patrol -- it's not going to rise to the level of a arguable/winnable criminal offense.

Worst case scenario, actual sensitive documents are recovered, they still have to show intent.  Maralago wasn't cleared/vetted as a secure location, but If these documents were locked in a secure file cabinet, in a secured office, in a building with advanced security -- as they all likely were - there's very little to go after -- except to keep Trump busy and away from the election circuit.   But since many many current and former government leaders all break and bend these security rules -- I'm just really doubtful anything will ever come of this.  

I mean, you all do realize that a birthday card written and signed by Obama when he was president and hand delivered to VP Joe Biden is a classified document.  There is a log that Obama's staff would have had to enter the birthday card in to show it's existence and the entry would've been immediately marked for declassification.  If Joe Biden took the card home from the office before the declassification was processed, that's a felony.   It's no joke.    Remember all the hoops Obama had to jump through to have private cell phones to text/call his little kids.  The republicans at the time tried to make some noise over that. 
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James Woodcock
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Joined: 21 September 2007
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Posted: 11 September 2022 at 3:50pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Are any of those classified as Top Secret Geoffrey? Because there seem to
be a few documents that were marked as that.

Classified is not the issue - documents that should only be viewed in
specific locations, of which his residence was not one of those locations,
seem to be the issue.



Lumping it all as classified is a smoke screen. There’s enough out there that
such a conversation has alreadt]y been put to bed.
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Conrad Teves
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Joined: 28 January 2014
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Posted: 11 September 2022 at 10:10pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Geoffrey>>I promise you, the probable cause for the raid on Maralago was largely based on in proper and unauthorized storage of classified material -- NOT based on content of said materials.<<

That's not what's on the affidavit to the warrant.  What you are saying sounds like a preparatory excuse in case they do find something specific that's bad.  What could be bad in a folder marked TS/SCI? Musta got in there randomly!  The SCI part does not indicate dad jokes that Pence sent.

The narrative so far:

It was planted, but he wants it back.
It was there, but he declassified *everything* by wishing it so with a "standing order" that left all the documents not properly marked as such.  (We can't see them via FOIA request doubtless because it's private and he's shy).
And now we have this incompetence excuse.

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 11 September 2022 at 10:43pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

I promise you, the probable cause for the raid on Maralago was largely based on in proper and unauthorized storage of classified material -- NOT based on content of said materials.

———

You can promise all you want, but this is in direct contradiction to what it actually says on the search warrant.

The actual search warrant itself says nothing about classified materials. The three statutes cited in the warrant are the Espionage Act, which concerns documents related to national defense; 18 U.S. Code § 1519, which concerns the destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in a federal investigation; and 18 U.S. Code § 2071, which concerns the concealment, removal, mutilation, obliteration, or destruction of general property.

The affidavit states that there were NDI documents in the first batch recovered from Mar-a-Lago and that they had reason to suspect there were still documents being stored there, despite Trump’s lawyer saying that everything had been turned over. It’s laughable to argue that this is a case of grabbing some classified Pence dad jokes in the hopes of finding a smoking gun. 

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 12 September 2022 at 2:24am | IP Logged | 11 post reply


 QUOTE:
You can promise all you want, but this is in direct contradiction to what it actually says on the search warrant.

The actual search warrant itself says nothing about classified materials. 

The affadavit in support of the application to the search warrant lays down the basis for probable cause to believe that they would find at Mar a Lago evidence, contraband, fruits of crime or other items illegally possessed in violation of the statutes you name.

Verbatim from the lists of facts and circumstances provided is this:

"I believe that the storage room, FPOTUS's residential suite, Pine Hall, the "45 Office" and other spaces with the premises are not currently authorized locations for the storage of classified information or NDI. Similarly, based upon this investigation, I do not believe that any spaces within the premises have been authorized for the storage of classified information at least since the end of FPOTUS's Presidential Administration on January 20, 2021."

Whatever the merits of the arguments being made, it's clearly not true, therefore, to say the document says nothing about classified materials.


Edited by Peter Martin on 12 September 2022 at 2:25am
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Michael Roberts
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Joined: 20 April 2004
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Posted: 12 September 2022 at 2:31am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Whatever the merits of the arguments being made, it's clearly not true, therefore, to say the document says nothing about classified materials.

———

Read what I wrote Peter. 
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