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Eric Jansen
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Joined: 27 October 2013
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Posted: 03 December 2022 at 3:19am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I'm reading two books right now--Will Eisner's SHOP TALK (the Jack Kirby chapter at the moment) and the new TPB reprint of Jack Kirby's KAMANDI.

Just like with Kirby's memories of working with Stan Lee (which I don't want to relitigate right now), Kirby remembers doing all the writing when he worked with Joe Simon.  (Contrary to the Stan Lee recollection, Kirby has nothing but good things to say about Simon here.)  I thought the two were a bit more equal partners, but this would reduce Simon to Kirby's inker (and maybe the business guy).

It seems to me (okay, I'll mention it, but I don't want to argue about it) that Kirby thought PLOTTING a comic story was writing it, but I gather that Stan Lee thought that SCRIPTING it was the writing!  (In fact, the writer's test for working at Marvel was scripting an already-drawn scene.)

With Ditko and Kirby's non-Marvel work, it seems the scripting (Kirby doing his own scripting and people like Denny O'Neil scripting Ditko's) did its job but didn't add much.  (I get the impression that perhaps Kirby didn't understand why his solo work was not as popular or successful as when he was teamed with an entertaining scripter.)

On the other hand, I can totally see Stan Lee thinking that his entertaining dialogue and captions were very important--because they were!  I always got an extra enjoyment out of Stan Lee's dialogue and I really appreciated just the choice of words used by him, Doug Moench, and Steve Gerber (and perhaps a few others, but those are who come to mind right now).  I would read their stuff no matter who drew it.

As someone who has dabbled in self-publishing (and similar non-industry work), I find that I can plot a story very quickly, but scripting the words (dialogue and captions) takes a lot longer and is in many ways harder work.  UNLESS the plot isn't quite working, then I can take hours (days, months!) finetuning the plot, and then the scripting becomes the easier part simply by contrast.

It was easier to separate the plot and the script in the heyday of "Marvel style," but now (I believe) most comics are done full script.  You don't see separating the two jobs too much anymore--maybe some of Neal Adams' Continuity comics in the 80's and Jim Lee's 90's Homage/Image comics, and maybe Adams' more recent DC mini-series would have been better received if he had left the scripting to somebody else.

So, maybe it's a moot point now, but I'm still curious what people think--is WRITING a comic story more in the PLOTTING or the SCRIPTING?

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Jabari Lamar
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Posted: 04 December 2022 at 1:27am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Obviously, they're both important, but I would say that scripting is the more vital part of the equation. I mean, pretty much anyone can come up with a bare-bones plot for a story, but taking that plot and making it entertaining is a whole different skill set. 

Like, one of my all-time favorite movies has a plot of: 5 high school students spend a Saturday in detention getting to know each other. That doesn't sound very compelling by itself, but it's the writer's script that makes it a great film. 

In terms of comic-books, I'd say both the plotter and the scripter should be considered the "writers" of the story. 
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 04 December 2022 at 1:38pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I worked at WildStorm from '94 to '96. IIRC, they worked full script on the books I edited.
Writing is both tasks: plot and script. When done right, each makes its own contribution to the story. It's like making a cake; if the recipe is off, it won't taste right. 
While good/great art will bring a reader in, a good plot will keep them. 
Likewise, a good story will engage readers but dull, uninspired or trite scripting will turn them off.
It's not as easy to plot a book as all that. You have to have a hook, a story arc, a balance between action and character work (which too many writers think is boring) and world-building. Sure, you can dash off a fairly basic plot in a few minutes but good plotting is more involved than that.
Good scripting also takes time.
And writers have different strengths--some are naturals at plot, at the mechanics of structuring a story, while others have an easier time putting words in characters' mouths.
In short: both jobs matter. They're different but they're both important and if you do both well, you'll be a much better writer.
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ron bailey
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Posted: 04 December 2022 at 10:06pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

You're that Drew Bitner? I tip my hat to you, sir :)
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Jason Czeskleba
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Joined: 30 April 2004
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Posted: 04 December 2022 at 10:44pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

 Jabari Lamar wrote:
Obviously, they're both important, but I would say that scripting is the more vital part of the equation. I mean, pretty much anyone can come up with a bare-bones plot for a story, but taking that plot and making it entertaining is a whole different skill set.

In the production of a Marvel-style comic though, there's a lot that happens between "bare bones plot" and the scripting of dialogue.  Once you come up with the basic idea for a plot, it has to be fleshed out with all the specific detail and individual scenes that develop the story.  And then the plot has to be broken down into individual pages and panels... decisions need to be made about what will happen in each panel. I would argue that this middle stage is probably the most important part of the writing of a comic story.  It's not just what happens but how it happens that creates the drama and impact of a story.

My understanding is that some writers will provide detailed plots that do break down every panel for the artist.  But Stan Lee did not, it was generally left to his collaborators to do this work.  Some of his collaborators enjoyed the freedom this provided to contribute to the writing of the stories, but others resented being expected to do writing work without being paid for it. 
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Steven Myers
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Posted: 05 December 2022 at 3:14am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I was telling the local game/comic shop owner that I had finished drawing a story and was waiting for someone to write it. He didn't understand that you could draw something without the story written first.

Stan Lee's collaborations are interesting because sometimes you can see he's telling plot points the artist left out, while sometimes he's changing the artist's intent, and other times he misses something the artist drew. But it's always entertaining!
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 05 December 2022 at 9:31am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

70's Marvel often had an issue plotted by one writer and then scripted by another, especially when a new writer was taking over from another whose stint had ended.  I think I figured out even as a kid that somebody had moved on while the art was being done.  Every once in a while, you could tell that a good scripter had improved the story, or a lesser script hurt it.
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 05 December 2022 at 3:40pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

It's a really good question and I can conceive of examples that back either side of the debate.

Perhaps hedging my bets, I'd say a great script cannot rescue a truly boring plot. But a great script over a run of the mill plot is probably more enjoyable than a run of the mill script over a great plot.

Overall, then, perhaps a slight leaning to script.


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Jason Czeskleba
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Joined: 30 April 2004
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Posted: 05 December 2022 at 8:10pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

 Peter Martin wrote:

Perhaps hedging my bets, I'd say a great script cannot rescue a truly boring plot. But a great script over a run of the mill plot is probably more enjoyable than a run of the mill script over a great plot.
If by "script" we mean simply adding dialogue to a fully-drawn comic story, then I strongly disagree.  If we accept the popular consensus that Stan Lee is a better dialogue writer than Jack Kirby, then which would you say are better comics:  Kirby's final ten issues of Fantastic Four, or the first 11 issues of New Gods?  There were some very run-of-the-mill plots at the end of that FF run.  I don't know if you'd say Stan wrote great dialogue for them, but I don't think any dialogue could have made them better then they turned out... the plots are for the most part lackluster.  By contrast, one might argue that Kirby's New Gods would be better with more conversational, less stilted dialogue, but it's still an amazing read.  So I'd say it's the opposite of what you asserted above:  great scripting can't really rescue a run-of-the-mill plot, whereas a great plot can overcome weaker dialogue.
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Andrew Bitner
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Joined: 01 June 2004
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Posted: 06 December 2022 at 1:27am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

ron: You're that Drew Bitner? I tip my hat to you, sir :)

***

That's me! All year-and-a-half of working in beautiful San Diego. Still got a lot of friends from those days. :-D
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 06 December 2022 at 1:39am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Tell Jim Lee to draw something for Marvel again. Or just draw something
again.
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Mark Haslett
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Joined: 19 April 2004
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Posted: 06 December 2022 at 3:58am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Well said, Jason!
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