Nice article. Thanks for posting it!

This is my biggest "what if?" JB project. He's so well-suited for the character, it breaks my heart that the run was so short. The interviews of the period in which JB discusses his plans for the book only rub salt in the wound! JB totally gets what the Hulk is all about--that eternal schism between Banner's reason and the Hulk's rage.

Woulda been great to see the Hulk get back to basics. JB mentioned at the time that Banner would almost have been like an alcoholic--seemingly in control of the Hulk (but still losing it), and becoming addicted to being the Hulk. Unfortunately, the run ended just before JB moved things out of the status quo and back to basics. There was even going to be a "very, very, very important death" that we never got to see (I agree with the author's theory about that).

Of course, as it mentioned in the article, the first seeds of this aborted plotline can be seen in # 319, when Banner frustratedly mentions that he thinks there might have been a way from the start to have been in control of the Hulk's power.

That, of course, harks back to the early stories in which Banner wanted to use the power of the Hulk for the good of mankind, but couldn't quite maintain control over his brutish alter-ego.

Woulda been great!

I've been obsessing over this for over 25 years.

I'm sure JB would say it's a ridiculous notion, to obsess over what never was or could be, since it's gone. But for a kid who loved the Hulk, Kirby's early version, Sal's version, and pretty much any version before Peter David got his mitts on him (though the Gray Hulk--not "Mr. Fixit" which was stupid--reminded me enough of Kirby's issues 5-6 Hulk to intrigue), I couldn't help but want JB to educate me on a Hulk I didn't know existed. No matter how critics want to say JB is a staunch retro-vivalist, I know his work speaks volumes about uniqueness filtered through the past. JB's FF wasn't a slavish Lee/Kirby homage, and I didn't figure the Hulk would be either!

What I wish would happen, which won't, would be for JB to create an original creator-owned series, like DANGER UNLIMITED, as the Hulk series he wanted to produce. The history wouldn't be there, but then it's easy enough to world-build with analogues.

I'd be mighty interested in what kind of name JB would come up with for a creator-owned Hulk character, "creature of the night" behemoth based on Lee/Kirby's!

I'm going to have trouble looking at the Hulk now without
thinking about what might have been.

So I'm reading along, and thinking This is all WAY too positive! Does this guy actually have the stones to simply say he LIKES what I did, and damn the Byrne Bashers?

Then I hit that line, and the cosmic balance was restored.

Dennis::I guess he was not fated to have any success with the Hulk...

How are you quantifying/defining not successful??

++

Not the most flattering of assessments, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was a line meant to appease Byrne-bashers.

••

Call it appeasement, or call it yet another manifestation of that annoying habit some fans have of not being able to simply express a liking for something without having to QUALIFY it. As if they are afraid that saying "I like Joe Fonebone's work!" will unleash a torrent of demands that justification must be given for liking an issue Joe did fifteen years ago, when he was recovering from brain surgery and drawing with his feet.

This is an issue that has bugged me for years.  It seems that when i hear comics discussed in any other meduim (be it magazines, tv, movies, internet, etc.) all i hear praise for are the "greats" like Gaiman, Moore, Miller, Morrison et. al., all the while utterly ignoring Mr. Byrne's immense canon, longevity and influence on the industry and us readers.  I have not and would never qualify my love of JB's work.  It is what it is, and it's great.

And yes, I did say JB has an "immense canon".  Make of it what you will.

Hey....I agree with JB.

After all I write on my FB page....." I love John Byrne's work"....'nuff said.

There is no mystery to why this is. JB has always  written, more or less, for an "all-ages" audience while  the vast majority of the works created by those you mentioned were aimed at adults (or quasi-adults)or attempted to change an existing property into something geared to the tastes of an aging fanbase.

No matter how good JB's stuff was or is, he'll never get the critical acclaim given his chosen style. It's unfair,  but it's the way it works across all entertainment/art mediums. Walt Simonson, Roger Stern, Jim Starlin, etc, etc, all suffer the same unfair bias.

Call it appeasement, or call it yet another manifestation of that annoying habit some fans have of not being able to simply express a liking for something without having to QUALIFY it. As if they are afraid that saying "I like Joe Fonebone's work!" will unleash a torrent of demands that justification must be given for liking an issue Joe did fifteen years ago, when he was recovering from brain surgery and drawing with his feet.

++++++++

Well, that nut calling himself Joe Zhang did post one of those "his old stuff was better" tirades in the article's comment section, so...

I enjoyed the articles because I thought there was a lot of good information there that I had never seen before.   I was a kid when I read the issues, and I never read all of the interviews where Mr. Byrne discussed his plans for the series.   I would have loved to go on the full ride that Mr. Byrne intended.   Reading Al Milgrom's resolution to the separation, when the Vision played a key role in re-integrating Banner and the Hulk, was memorable, but somehow a letdown for me, even at the time.   I can see how Mr. Byrne's characterization of the Hulk as a mindless, destructive brute with no redeeming qualities was perhaps set-up for the death of that character as he was envisioned at that time.   What a great way to set up an in-story, in-continuity "reboot."

I didn't really think there was a plethora of backhandedness going on. I think most of the time the writer was pointing out that the story in retrospect seemed to waver out of the gate. If the issues hadn't been impactful, the writer wouldn't still be poring over the articles to connect dots that obviously pointed toward something larger happening.

At the time I read the JB Hulk issues, I was fifteen and my mind was reeling from the fact that JB was doing the Hulk at all. To me, it seemed like there was a lot of stuff JB was trying to fix in a hurry, mostly to do with character integrity of the Hulk's supporting cast. It's easy to see that JB intended to reforge a bond between the Hulk and his cast, and the readers and the cast, which had been lost during Mantlo-Vision.

This was during a time when JB's storytelling was changing, I think. It had been noticeable on the FF for some time before. The pace was more in tune with later JB, a pace built around ideas and practices, the mechanics of the pulpy serial story of the early JB FF given way to more intellectual considerations.

And like any good JB, recognizing his Hulk audience, he didn't waver from producing some of the most stunning fight panels seen in the Hulk in a while. The one thing JB did with those fights, you'll note, is increase the "heavyweight" density of the characters. They move like heavily-muscled beasts, with unnatural speed in some cases, and unbelievable power. It's why people still talk about the Avengers/ Hulk fight or the Doc Samson knockout. There was more weight, literally and figuritively, in the struggle.

I still can't believe JB didn't get around to a Hulk/Thing fight. KILLS me.

Well, that nut calling himself Joe Zhang

******************

Didn't that guy used to post here ?

Didn't that guy used to post here ?
------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------

I may be wrong but as quoted 'That nut CALLING himself ....'

Not sure that it is the real Joe as I seem to remember him being cloned by a fair few people back in the day.

Joel--The Beyonder did, in a manner of speaking, trick Alpha Flight into bringing the Hulk back to Earth. Remember on the final page of Incredible Hulk #312 that he redirected the energy line that Alpha Flight sent through other dimensions. It would likely not have found the Hulk otherwise.

Ah, then my bad. I only read the Alpha Flight issue (JB's last) for that viewpoint. I'm pretty sure that from their perspective, the "fishing line" to the Hulk happened after their encounter with the Beyonder. But I wasn't reading the Hulk then, and didn't even consider that could have been part of that story!

Paul, I feel quite certain that the guy who posted on Gary's blog calling himself "Joe Zhang" is probably posting here today.  Under whatever name or names he has set up for himself here.  And he probably pats himself on his back for his own cleverness.

calling himself "Joe Zhang" is probably posting here today.

*********

You mean Rod Odom?

So, this topic has me looking at the run again, and lamenting what might have been.

It also got me thinking--

JB planned on bringing back a Hulk who really hadn't been seen since the original 60s run. Some would argue that was a "finding" period for the character, and that the savage, "Hulk Smash!" version is the real deal (and they'd have a point, since that version was around for a solid 20 years or so).

I love 'em both--I grew up with back issues featuring the classic savage Hulk, but I also fell totally in love with the original six issues when I got the Marvel Masterworks volume as a kid.

Both versions have a lot of interesting dramatic meat to them.

1. The early Hulk works well, because Banner is a very prominent figure, rather than being the boring guy we just want to see Hulk-Out. The early Banner wanted to play superhero, basically--he thought he could control this primal power and use it for mankind's benefit. Of course, the Hulk's innate brutality would peek out from time to time. It appears that the Hulk is inherently a creature of rage, even under circumstances when Banner is seemingly in control.

One problem of this version (which I'm sure JB had an answer for) is that the Hulk was tied to a specific location--he needed the gamma ray machine in the cave to change back and forth. That limited story possibilities somewhat.

2. The classic "Hulk smash!" version had a somewhat more flexible format--Banner turns into the Hulk, a savage monster with his own personality and memories--when he gets angry or excited. Of course, the TV version followed this formula. With this version, the Hulk is truly a menace, and Banner's goal is to be cured, rather than to control the power. There's also a lot of nice, allegorical content--Banner's like an alcoholic who can only vaguely remember what he's done while "intoxicated", and his struggle to maintain control and not turn into the Hulk makes one think about the unhealthy repression of anger.

There's also the nice (unintentional?) notion that Banner cannot fully express his emotions (for fear of becoming the Hulk), while the Hulk can't find the peace he seeks (or else he'll turn back into Banner and cease to exist).

Certainly, we got many years of stories from # 2 (and the TV series, which was virtually the same, at its core), but I still think there's a lot of potential to be mined from #1. If only, JB, if only--!

And, of course, Peter David reaped the rewards of JB's set-up, using a number of the same ideas (Banner--under the Hulk's subconscious influence--willingly becoming the Hulk again to deal with a menace, etc.), but he took the psychology of the character in a very different direction, using Mantlo's childhood abuse angle (which JB apparently ignored) as a starting point.

JB's Hulk seems much in line with Lee and Kirby's original--the Hulk is a separate being formed out of Banner's rage--different from Banner, yet still connected. Thus, even when Banner is seemingly in control of the Hulk, the Hulk's innate rage is in there, waiting to burst out.

David, of course, slowly developed the MPD angle, and, although the early gray Hulk of his run superficially resembles the "angry Banner" version of the original run (in that he talks like a thug, etc.--and David later retconned the early "angry Banner" version into the gray Hulk persona asserting its dominance), the gray Hulk is essentially Banner's nasty, crude teenage emotions given its own persona, whereas the classic green Hulk was the raging inner child.

All things considered, I really like Lee and Kirby's original version (with Banner trying to stay in control, but his inner rage bubbling out), but the classic savage version is a formula that really worked for a long time.

So hard to choose a favorite!

I think one of the best ideas JB mentioned in that article's quotes was the idea of the original Kirby Hulk being controlled by Banner, as long as Banner released him regularly. Because if Banner DIDN'T, the Hulk would come out as a berserker, submerging Banner's intellect. Very interesting.

What I miss from the old Hulk hiding in the caves under New Mexico and Banner struggling to control that power is the tension inherent in the struggle. At that time, and presumably what JB was seeking to return to, was that the Hulk WAS Banner and vice versa. They weren't two seperate beings, but nor was the Hulk a psychological construct. The Hulk is literally Banner unleashed, unrestrained. Instead of the Hulk being a result of trauma from childhood, the Hulk is every man's inner rage, his Neanderthal survival instinct made flesh.

The idea of a brilliant scientist determined to put that instinct and power to good use is a theme that is slightly more interesting than Banner-as-victim, suffering from the Hulk's savage emergence at any moment.

And I've forever associated the Hulk with New Mexico. It was great for the Hulk to have his own territory. And everyone in the MU knew it! If you came to New Mexico looking for the Hulk, you were gonna find him and his big green fists!

I think I once mentioned that the Hulk had my favorite comic book HQ, in those caves. He's like Batman in that regard.

If I ever had a chance, I'd turn the Hulk into that gruff behemoth in New Mexico in a heartbeat. He's wildly intriguing.

At that time, and presumably what JB was seeking to return to, was that the Hulk WAS Banner and vice versa. They weren't two seperate beings, but nor was the Hulk a psychological construct.The Hulk is literally Banner unleashed, unrestrained. Instead of the Hulk being a result of trauma from childhood, the Hulk is every man's inner rage, his Neanderthal survival instinct made flesh.

++++++++++

I'd modify that appraisal slightly--the ORIGINAL Hulk, as seen in the first three issues, has only dim memories of Banner, and malicious intent toward humanity. He comes off as a truly Hyde-like persona--a separate being formed out of Banner's darker emotions, and yet is still connected to Banner's psyche. While he seems to sorta kinda self-identify as Banner when he sees the photo in Banner's cabin, it seems more as if he has some limited access to Banner's memories than anything else.

That version doesn't really come across to me as a mean version of Banner. It's not like he's a "drunk" Banner--the early Hulk's personality, goals, and attitudes are totally opposed to Banner's. The Hulk is Banner's anger made flesh--forever raging against the world, prizing power over reason, and despising the weak.

And, of course, in his very first appearance, the Hulk voices his hatred of Banner. I suppose you could say that Banner suffers from self-loathing of some sort--which is expressed through the Hulk--, but the Hulk is really contemptuous of Banner because he's weak, whereas the Hulk values power above all else. There's also the notion--as held forth in JB's run--that Banner continues to exist as a prisoner within the Hulk, a seperate persona that is submerged during the transformation. Heck, Banner even committed psychic "suicide" during Mantlo's run, while the Hulk remained active (albeit mindless).

Anyway, when Banner finally gains control in TIH # 4, the dynamic from that point on seems to be that Banner is struggling to maintain control as the Hulk because the Hulk's innate rage/persona is trying to break free. As a result we get a "tainted" Banner/Hulk, a Hulk who mostly thinks and acts like Banner, but is a nastier version of Banner. Not so much Banner unleashed as Banner fighting to suppress the Hulk's natural rage.

The other thing that sounds great is the idea that Banner would in fact kill/destroy the green Hulk. Then re-expose himself to Gamma Rays to become this new Hulk that (he assumed) he could control.

If JB had stayed on the book without all the editorial interferance I think it's possible that JB would be more renowned for his Hulk work than even his Fantastic Four run.

If JB had stayed on the book without all the editorial interferance I think it's possible that JB would be more renowned for his Hulk work than even his Fantastic Four run.

++++++++++

Agreed. A number of really interesting plotlines are hinted at in the issues that were completed:

Despite being portrayed as a totally mindless Hulk which should be destroyed, the story that ended up in FANFARE hints that Samson may have been right--underneath the rage, the "mindless" Hulk may have had the potential to be trained and educated. I get the impression that this would provide a bit of pathos for the Hulk--perhaps only we readers would know that he wasn't entirely a mindless beast...and then he gets killed! Or, perhaps Samson himself would have realized this at the last minute, only to see the Hulk get killed.

Certainly, there was some major tension building between Samson and Banner/the Hulkbusters--Samson even threatened Banner after the Hulkbusters interfered with his obsessive Hulk-hunt--and this was after he went to all that trouble to "rescue" Banner from the Hulk..

Also, I really wonder how the Banner-Betty dynamic would have gone after Banner became the "New Hulk". I doubt she'd be happy about it! Yet, JB noted in interviews of the period that Betty would essentially fill the Rick Jones role--serving as Banner's confidante, and even locking him in the underground vault. Very interesting--you'd think that Betty would be extremely leery of Banner becoming even a "safe" Hulk. After all, the last time this happened (in Mantlo's run), the Hulk ended up going berserk and was banished to the Crossroads.

Of course, in David's subsequent run, Betty was NOT happy about Banner becoming the Hulk again (after seemingly being cured during Milgrom's run), and was even less thrilled to learn that Banner had willing turned himself into the Hulk back in the old days to battle menaces.

I was surprised to know that if JB had his way, that the Hulk would have stayed green.
And to understand the version of the Hulk that was used in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe...
++++++++++

Yeah, I figured that out myself a few years ago--and the New Hulk also appears on the covers of the various magazines cited in the article--AMAZING HEROES, COMICS INTERVIEW, etc. He even seems to appear on the "farewell" page of ALPHA FLIGHT # 28 (in shadow).

In retrospect, it's rather obvious--all of those drawings are very much in the Kirby-Ayers vein--and look totally different from the Buscema-esque, bodybuilder-style Hulk JB drew in the first few issues of his run.

Gotta say that I'm also a big fan of that early Kirby Hulk--he's just so massive-looking (without being huge) and brutish!

I seem to recall first seeing the "primal" Lee-Kirby Hulk in a reprint
story in a Giant Size Defenders. That mean, Frankensteinian looking
creature bore little more than superficial resemblance to the green-
skinned goliath I recognized. Particularly scary was his pursuing Rick
Jones to a cliff's edge and leaning into him saying, "And now---
REVENGE!" That scene gave my 8 year old self a couple of really
bad dreams! Almost scared me off the character completely.

Banner was in control of the transformations (and his mind was in control of the Hulk) over in The Incredible Hulk at that time.

Thanks, Pete!

I think there's a reason this version of the character is so popular. He's undeniably a good guy. And the misunderstood aspect relates to most kids (it certainly did to me). When done well, you can still "root" for Banner and the Hulk -- even though their goals are at cross purposes. Arguably, though, perhaps the Hulk *wants* the same thing as Banner -- peace, but he can only get it by being cured.

The "darker" Hulk is more complex and arguably interesting but I'm not sure how relatable he is to kids.
++++++++++

Very good point. There seems to be some correlation between the Hulk becoming a more sympathetic monster and his series becoming successful.

Trying in with what I was saying before, the two flavors of Hulk seem to break down thusly:

1. The Hulk is Banner's dark side made flesh. Brutal, sinister, worships power, seeks revenge against humanity.

2. The Hulk is Banner's primal anger/inner child made flesh. Raging, unintelligent, forever seeking peace, not inherently malicious, misunderstood, easily ticked off.

Stan Lee essentially just went for the Frankenstein Monster misunderstood monster deal, sans the Hulk throwing a little girl into a pond to drown.

I recall as a kid that I didn't really blink when going from Sal Buscema/Ernie Chan Hulk stories to that little Pocket Books reprint of the first Hulk issues where he's doing AWESOME things like this:

I mean, I understood there was a difference but in actuality the television "Incredible Hulk" show had already prepared me for this Hulk. A less powerful Hulk, but more disgruntled and irritable. The Hulk operates on a smaller scale in these issues, even though he saves the entire world twice in six issues (Toad Men and Metal Master). There's still a personal quality to the Hulk's story, which is only rivaled by Peter Parker's soap operas. Most comics of the era didn't show the hero, like Banner, wavering with exhaustion and despair, and yet still trying to correct the worst mistake any scientist had ever made in regards the Gamma Bomb.

I think what got lost from the Silver Age Hulk was that very personal story of redemption. The Hulk suffered from our childlike fascination with his naivety, but I don't think it alienates kids to read about a Hulk who angrily refuses to bow down to evil men (Tyrannus), since the Hulk at that point is controlled by Banner's morals and ethics.

The only time the Hulk has a momentary slip of Banner's control resulted in one of the greatest pages of all time:

I think what I responded to about this Hulk was how forthright he is: this is the Randian Hulk, "A is A", black and white. And in a lot of ways, kids have that view. You're either a "bad guy" or a "good guy." You're not "Ambiguous Guy." Betty Ross and Rick Jones are barometers of the Hulk's ethics/morals; which made for an interesting dynamic. Believe or not, a team dynamic.

If you can dig it, the Kirby Banner-Hulk, Betty and Rick could be like a twisted take on "Jonny Quest." Only instead of Race Bannon you have King Kong. Going on missions, Cave Carsen style.

Such a "team" would give the name "Hulkbusters" a whole new and cool meaning!

It's interesting to me how superficially similar the proposed "new" Hulk is to the "Gray Hulk" we see in 331 - 376. I say "superficial" in that PAD played up the childhood abuse aspect and gave us a mentally unbalanced Bruce Banner.

++++++++

It's important to note that, while David's early Gray Hulk does indeed superficially resemble the original, he really is quite different. He talks like the "thug"/angry Banner Hulk, and yet is clearly not Banner "in control". He's also much smarter than the original, more brutish version--to the point where he became a wisecracking mob enforcer.

And, of course, this particular Gray version was eventually revealed to represent all of Banner's repressed teenage feelings--his crude, sexual, immature side.

JB's proposed version stuck with the original concept--the Hulk is Banner's dark side made flesh. David's gradually replaced that core concept with the MPD angle, and made Banner into a nutjob, rather than a (genius) everyman whose repressed negative emotions found a voice through the Hulk. And I think that the Hulk has never recovered from that fundamental change, because there's been no consistency in the character for over 20 years.

I suppose I never saw "Mr. Fixit" as being that much smarter than the brutish Hulk. He does seem to speak like the Hulk in the scan that Chad posted above.
+++++++++++

Since he wore fancy clothes, banged hot chicks, and made the occasional pop culture or literary reference, I'd say he was smarter!

Aside from the Banner-not-quite-in-control version, a smart Hulk doesn't work for me. Even the earliest version, while using personal pronouns, was still brutal and savage.

For me, since the Hulk represents anger, and anger is not a rational emotion, the Hulk really should be a creature of instinct and irrationality. An angry smart guy doesn't fit that bill. David's Gray Hulk is more of a sinister, grumpy human than a monster driven by rage.

And the savage Hulk works best for me when treated as a creature of rage rather than  a child-like moron. Sure, he has child-like qualities, but making him flat-out stupid (instead of a scary, monster with a hair-trigger) is going too far in that direction.

Banner, of course, should be the hero of the book--trying to control the monster within him, and working for the betterment of mankind. On the flipside, the Hulk is a menace, but still manages to lash out at (mostly) the right targets, since he's a dark reflection of Banner.

What David's run did was turn Banner the everyman into Banner the nutjob, and the Hulk from a mutant creature of rage into one of that nutjob's many personalities.

In the first version, Banner is a character we can relate to. He's a normal man who, through extraordinary circumstances, has had his inner rage released into the world. Essentially, the gamma rays altered his body in such a way as to distort his brain structure/chemistry when he's the Hulk, allowing his inner rage to be given its own life.

The second version turned the Hulk into a symptom of a pre-existing mental problem, one which happened to get unleashed by the gamma rays. So, the transformation serves as a stressor of sorts that causes the switch from one personality to another.

I was already a fan of the Hulk and JB. When I heard he'd be doing story and art for the book, I was thrilled. Those too few issues were magic. It was heartbreaking to me when they came to an end. Reading about what could have been, while interesting, doesn't make me feel any better about it!

Yes, that Samson whalloping the Hulk ranks right up there with Layton's Iron Man laying the smackdown on the Green Goliath. Some really great stuff there guys.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2009/02/16/a-year-o f-cool-comic-book-moments-day-47/ - http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2009/02/16/a-year-o f-cool-comic-book-moments-day-47/

Did anyone stick around for the Al Milgrom run immediately after JB's departure?  I seem to recall buying the first 2 issues of AM's run before bailing, but my memory is pretty foggy.  It seems Milgrom has always had some fairly harsh detractors, at least from an artistic standpoint (which I believe to be unfair), but how were his stories?  From what I remember from his days on SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, he seemed like a solid, dependable writer.

garry:  i can't remember the numbering, but it was the cover of Fantastic Four where Reed was up above New York City, supposedly fighting the tentacles of Dr. Octopus. 

Supposedly? That's exactly what he was fighting. Great issue...and my first Fantastic Four issue!

Octavius was allowed to have his "arms" because Reed wanted some type of special procedure done with Sue, that might have required his tentacles.  but, Banner and Octavius had words and one thing led to another.  and then.....BAM!!

That's not at all why Octavius had his arms. It had nothing to do with any procedure. Reed's intention was to bring him their sans arms bc of his knowledge in radiation, but Octavius snapped en route and subconsciously called his arms to him (not even realizing at the time that's what he was doing).


i always wondered about that scene and how cool it would have been if that would be the norm for the Hulk.   to do that, in control, every issue.  to have Banner and Hulk written like that all the time.

That's exactly how he was written at the time. He had been able to do that for the last couple of years. It wasn't in any way unique to this story. And that Banner in control storyline was much different than the "dark side of Banner but Banner in control" Hulk storyline JB had planned.

Did anyone stick around for the Al Milgrom run immediately after JB's departure?  I seem to recall buying the first 2 issues of AM's run before bailing, but my memory is pretty foggy.  It seems Milgrom has always had some fairly harsh detractors, at least from an artistic standpoint (which I believe to be unfair), but how were his stories?  From what I remember from his days on SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, he seemed like a solid, dependable writer.

I thought it was fine. Not as good as JB's writing, nor what was planned, but certainly serviceable. Interesting that you bring up Al's detractors on the artistic side. I never really understood that. I thought he was a fine artist. However, I always liked his pencils and his covers where he inked himself better than when other artists inked him. He had a rougher look that I think enhanced his art, and many artist (Mooney, Sinnot) smoothed things out quite a bit and that wasn't to his benefit IMO.

=====
I stuck around for a while. Once Gen. Ross became Zzaxx and Rick
became a long haired Hulk I had to drop it. The premise had potential,
but it wasn't well executed and came off a bit silly.

Al Milgrom was hard to stomach after JB departed, and most of that was pure bitterness and resentment on my part--which poor Al caught instead of JB, who'd run out on the title!

Today I recognize Milgrom as a hell of a pro and one a handful of the best inkers of all time.

Milgrom over Steve Rude, from one of the truly great one-shot stories of the last 20 years, INCREDIBLE HULK VS SUPERMAN.

I'd have died to see this Hulk.

Which does bring up the point once again: Would JB's changed-back-to-original Hulk have become the standard for the character, even today?

I guess the proof would have to be in how many stories JB could have done, and how popular they would have been. I daresay that JB might not have made "Time Magazine" for Superman's anniversary, but I can imagine an alternate reality where JB lasted a lot longer and had a lot more acclaim for his Hulk.

Heck, you could take it even further: how would life have been different for John Byrne? Would the Hulk have pushed him into a strata at Marvel even Jim Shooter couldn't touch? Would JB have become EiC eventually? Would Marvel Comics as a whole have traveled through the 1990s essentially unsullied by McFarlane and Co and all that that implies?

Would comic books be different today if JB had remained at Marvel? Would today's comics be the House That Byrne Built?

It's kind of wild to consider!

I don't see why this approach wouldn't have/could still work. Banner has been the victim for so long, and the unimaginative writers today seem unable to give Banner his due unless Banner is a "merged" Hulk or the Intelligent Hulk.

I like the idea of Banner purposely transforming himself, and in control of the monster even if he has a tendancy to be violent/crude/disgruntled/misanthropic as the Hulk. And the reason I love it is because that's what I wanted to be able to do as a kid.

I never thought of the television series Hulk as seperate from Banner, or a victim, as Bill Bixby's moral/ethical sense always propelled the television Hulk. Thus, this whole "Banner as Hulk's bitch" routine that became the standard just meant to us (kids) that Banner in the comics was to be ignored completely. Which he essentially was for most of two decades.

The point is: Banner controlling the transformation is what I would have done. If you gave me (a kid) a machine to bombard myself with Gamma Rays so I could punch a bully's head off, I'd have done it.

By the way, I wonder if JB would have brought back the Kirby Hulk's hairy arms. As usual, Kirby came up with a cool misanthropic antihero with hairy arms long before Wolverine was a splat in any fanboy's jeans.

Joel Tesch wrote: Interesting that you bring up Al's detractors on the artistic side. I never really understood that. I thought he was a fine artist.

I'm sure he's a nice guy, but I can't stand his art.  When I'd see a title with him as artist, it was the quickest way to get me to drop a title. 

After this, I read JBs HULK with new eyes. I reread it last weekend. I never did read what happened just after JB left.

 All I can think about now, is what could have been.

Hulk going into that machine looks strange. He's been drawn straight on, as if we're seeing him directly from the side. The machine has some pretty strong foreshortening going on. The Hulk and table he's on don't seem to match the machine.

Chad, with writer/editor Roy Thomas's blessing, Rich Buckler brought back the hairy-armed, hairy-chested Hulk in 1974:

, but I don't think he's been seen since. Brian, in the early days of mighty Marvel, when the King seemed to be drawing virtually EVERY feckin' book they published, Jack often was chided in letters' pages for not being able to keep straight how many fingers and toes the Hulk and the Thing had on each hand and foot.  Stan, similarly overworked, had an equally difficult time when it came to editing - he confessed he couldn't remember, either.

i was heavily into both books when the switch took place that landed john at the hulk book.i'd rather it never happened at all but john's hulk stuff was the usual greatness,the depature was a shock for me-getting issue 120 in my hands,opening it up and seeing no byrne.

i stayed with the hulk,was pretty happy with what milgrom did with it.

anybody see that the current/upcoming issue of the hulks' variant cover is a picture of the guy in the thor costume??

marvel editors am drink while working time again?!?

I get the feeling the return of the KirbyHulk could have revitalized the character. For one thing, just about every artist type I've ever heard about is nutso for the Frankenstein Monster. They love drawing him, they love buying stuff with him on it.

The Hulk shared a unique bond with Mary Shelley's creation. Even though Kirby started out with a romantic, handsome Hulk in ish 1, by ish 3 he had established the cro-magnon standard. It's a look that isn't shared by any other character.

From a graphic standpoint, you could take a square with a little patch of hair on top, put two brow humps on it with a snarl mouth, with no other features, and have an instantly-recognizable symbol. The Hulk's "S"-shield, for want of better phrasing.

Anyway, Bruce Timm and Steve Rude have long expressed their love of this look.

What David's run did was turn Banner the everyman into Banner the nutjob, and the Hulk from a mutant creature of rage into one of that nutjob's many personalities.

In the first version, Banner is a character we can relate to. He's a normal man who, through extraordinary circumstances, has had his inner rage released into the world. Essentially, the gamma rays altered his body in such a way as to distort his brain structure/chemistry when he's the Hulk, allowing his inner rage to be given its own life.

The second version turned the Hulk into a symptom of a pre-existing mental problem, one which happened to get unleashed by the gamma rays. So, the transformation serves as a stressor of sorts that causes the switch from one personality to another.

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I would never have called Banner an "everyman".  Someone who is called a "milksop" nerd is by definition an outsider, not an everyman.  But I get the point you're going for.

But I wonder if part of the problem with the change in the Hulk's premise comes from the Leader, the Abomination and Doc Sampson.  If Banner is supposed to be normal man whose rage was unleashed by gamma rays, then why is he unique among gamma mutated individuals?  The other major gamma individuals didn't appear to have radical personality changes nor do they have a Jeckel and Hyde effect.  (I say "Major" gamma individuals, because I know we had one shot storylines that were closer to the Hulk, but those aren't the ones that had lasting impact. ) 

But I wonder if part of the problem with the change in the Hulk's premise comes from the Leader, the Abomination and Doc Sampson.  If Banner is supposed to be normal man whose rage was unleashed by gamma rays, then why is he unique among gamma mutated individuals?

++++++++

As Roger Stern established (and JB noted in his 1985 Hulk-era interviews), the gamma rays bring out a person's repressed inner self.

Banner's inner rage made him into the Hulk.

Samson became a superhero, because that's what he secretly wanted to be.

Jen Walters became sexy and uninhibited as the She-Hulk (but not at first).

Blonsky wanted to be a tough guy.

i thought Banner got his power only from the explosion.

For a while in the early-mid 1960s, Banner figured out that he could expose himself to Gamma Rays, trigger his transformation himself, and retain his intelligence albeit with an undercurrent of brutish misanthropy. Banner would "dose" and become the Hulk, in order that he could do some great good in the world.

That was the status quo for a short while. What the original Gamma Bomb had done to Banner's cells prevented him from dying of further exposure to Gamma treatment. This resultant Hulk is the one John Byrne would've used in his Hulk run.

I guess it was very soonafter that Stan Lee started using Banner's wussified panic attacks to trigger his change into an Of Mice And Men-type Hulk.

Somebody mentioned loving the Rick Jones Hulk of PAD.

I actually dug the WHAT IF? Jones Hulk. Who wouldn't, when your catch-phrase is so cool?

Somebody mentioned loving the Rick Jones Hulk of PAD.

I actually dug the WHAT IF? Jones Hulk. Who wouldn't, when your catch-phrase is so cool?

+++++++++++++++

That would be me...and I try very hard to try and forget that issue of What If? with Rick Jones as the Hulk...lol!

Re-reading these issues recently, I was again struck with the elegant simplicity of Banner's hallucination (...or is it the Hulk's?) in # 315, which says so much about the duality of the character(s) without really saying much at all on the page. The splash page is also a nice little homage to Kirby's splash for INCREDIBLE HULK # 3.

It's a great concept--a literalization of a Banner warring with his dark side, which is forever tormenting him and trying to destroy him. And, of course, the classic underground vault from the Lee-Kirby run serves as a visual metaphor for the repression of emotion, which is what Banner is trying to do in terms of caging the Hulk within himself.

Interestingly, Paul Dini wrote a similar sequence for an episode of the 1982 cartoon, with Banner dreaming about the Hulk chasing him and trying to kill him. Great minds, eh? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URa1dIY5CLc - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URa1dIY5CLc

And, of course, Ken Johnson used a similar concept to depict Banner trying to control the Hulk in the "Married" episode of the TV series.

Aside from the rare literal possibility of Banner and the Hulk coming face-to-face (as when they were occasionally separate beings), such dream/hallucination sequences strike a resonant note with me--seeing Banner's internal conflict visualized is a pretty neat thing.

Interestingly, Paul Dini wrote a similar sequence for an episode of the 1982 cartoon, with Banner dreaming about the Hulk chasing him and trying to kill him. Great minds, eh? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URa1dIY5CLc - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URa1dIY5CLc

****
SER: I loved that show. It's what sold me on the Hulk as a kid. Banner is a noble, good man who is struggling with the monster he becomes. (Though the monster is not *evil* just impossible to control.)

I'm also a big fan of that show. Love the title theme. It helped lay the foundation of what the Hulk should be (along with the live-action show)  for me when I was a kid. Also, Michael Bell is one of my favorite voice actors, and I love his version of Banner.

Interestingly, the notion of Banner having a secret identity was maintained in the show.

And, of course, the show kept one of the glaring problems with Lee and Kirby's origin story--Banner goes right back to work after being exposed to an insane amount of radiation, and no one ever mentions it again. Not even a "Hey, Bruce, remember that time you survived the Gamma Bomb's detonation? That was weird.". You'd think that medical tests would be done to determine why Banner suffered no ill effects, but no. And there's also the conspicuous appearance of the Hulk immediately after the Gamma Bomb incident (who, forensics would no doubt prove, smashed his way out from the inside of Banner's hospital room).

On the flipside, the cartoon solved a problem--in the original story, Banner drags Jones to the protective trench, when he should be thinking that Igor has halted the countdown. In the cartoon, a warning siren sounds just as he intercepts Rick, and so Banner realizes that the countdown hasn't been stopped.

Love the Hulk's origin story, though. I really don't care about the logic problems and anachronisms--I just love it!

That's been a trap that some writers have fallen into--Banner is just the nerdy guy we have to deal with until he Hulks-out.

I think a more fully-fleshed-out Banner (as JB's run gave us) is integral to telling good Hulk stories.

The bottom line of the Hulk is that duality--that contrast between reason and rage, man and monster. Leave one half of that dynamic underdeveloped and unexplored, and the whole suffers.

Sure, seeing the Hulk running around and smashing stuff is fun, but without Banner there as a genuinely interesting character, it gets dull.

On the flipside, too much Banner--with little or no Hulk--(as in Bruce Jones' run), or Banner in full control of the Hulk (as in portions of Mantlo and David's runs) robs the book of its central conflict, and makes it dull.  

--(as in Bruce Jones' run), 

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Worst Run Ever!!!

This is what worked in the TV show and the 2008 movie: Banner was, in his own right, a hero. He has two curses: this monstrously powerful, destructive rage inside, and a compassion for people that will ultimately bring about the former. Some of the best eras of the comic hit these notes, as well: Wein, Stern, Mantlo (just before the Banner Brained Hulk)..

You feel for him. You want him to be cured, all the time knowing that if he is, you don't get to watch Hulk smash.

Did David Banner ever know that he, or rather the Hulk, didn't kill the woman scientist/love interest who was helping him in the pilot?

I can't recall, but if David Banner thought the Hulk killed that dame, he'd be hard-pressed to ever think anything good could come from the creature, unless completely by accident.

Yep, he knew that the Hulk wasn't responsible for her death--after all, when he DID think the Hulk had killed someone in "The Psychic", Banner nearly committed suicide.

The only reason Banner didn't commit suicide in the series is because the creature hadn't killed anyone. If the Hulk really became a killer, Banner would be unable to live with himself, and would then have to take steps to protect others, even at the cost of his own life.

The TV Series, as shown in the episodes "Dark Side" and "The First" established that while Banner's Hulk was caused by severe anger or stress it was ultimately a good creature, as Banner himself was a good and kind person.

Del Frye in "The First" was already a "bad" or nasty person so his Hulk reflected that aspect.

It's hard dealing with a character with only ONE power; especially if that power is natural raw strength.  This is why the Hulk comic could kind of get boring, to me, at times.

In the 70's, the Hulk was known as Savage and Mindless in character(though his moniker was "Incredible" on the cover).  But, to me, his comicbook didn't have the same impact, as say, Spider-Man.  To me, it was still kind of dull.

Then the 80's came.  That's when I really started reading.  And, in the early 80's, I noticed that that's when the Hulk had been given "the mind of Bruce Banner".  It was still kind of dull, because it seemed like the Hulk was "too calm".

Then, in the mid 80's, I saw JB's Hulk.  It piqued my interest.  And, I read it.  And then it hit me why the Hulk comic didn't click too well with me as the other Marvel titles:  Bruce Banner.

Or, rather, this certain portrayal of Banner that JB did.  JB showed me that Bruce Banner was a man, like any other man; a man with passions, ideals, flaws, fears, and aspirations.  In other words, his personality was brought out more to me during that short run.  He was more than just a scientist during JB's run.  And, that's what attracted me to his run on the Hulk.

The other attraction, of course, were the battles, super and personal, that the Hulk himself endured.  even the fights were different to me.

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Garry,

Once again, I am going to disagree with you. Much as I am a an of JB, he wasn't the only one that demonstrated this about Bruce Banner or The Hulk. Re-read the stories by Stan Lee, Roy Thomas, Gerry Conway, Steve Englehart, Len Wein, Roger Stern and Bill Mantlo and this shines through.

The Flash only has one power, and he is an interesting character nom matter who wears the costume.