Worst comparison ever?
Printed From: The John Byrne Forum
Forum Name: The John Byrne Forum
Forum Discription: Everything to do with comic book writer/artist John Byrne
URL: https://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39468
Printed Date: 17 April 2025 at 10:28pm
Topic: Worst comparison ever?
Posted By: Armindo Macieira
Subject: Worst comparison ever?
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 9:10am
|
I was reading an interview about Kirkman new project ( http://www.newsarama.com/comics/robert-kirkman-the-infinite- 110401.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&ut m_campaign=Feed%3A+newsaramacomics+%28Newsarama.com+comics%2 9 - here) when I came across this: "You’ve been quoted in the past as saying that Rob is “the modern-day equivalent of Jack Kirby”." I dug a little further and Kirkman truly said that (see http://seebelow.livejournal.com/212329.html - here ) Is this comparison the worst comparison ever or what? How come someone who works with so many artists can have this opinion? It baffles me... |
Replies:
Posted By: JohnByrne4
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 9:13am
| Erik Larsen said the same thing, when Kirby died. |
Posted By: Armindo Macieira
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 9:16am
| Dear God... words fail me... |
Posted By: Kevin Brown
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 9:20am
|
The only "Kirby" Liefeld is close to being is this Kirby:
|
Posted By: Paulo Pereira
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 9:21am
| Worst comparison ever? Possibly. Worst I've heard, anyway. |
Posted By: JohnByrne4
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 9:29am
|
The Image Boys were pretty good at using Kirby as the core of some really bad comparisons. When they were working themselves up to their break with Marvel, they liked to be compared to Kirby in the way they were being "ripped off". Jack Kirby -- co-created the entire Marvel Universe and got only his page rate. The Image Boys -- made millions off characters created by others. The comparison is so close it's frightening!!! |
Posted By: Pascal LISE
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 9:32am
|
Erik Larsen said the same thing, when Kirby died. --- You must be joking? And who is Kirkman? (joking) |
Posted By: JohnByrne4
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 9:39am
|
Erik Larsen said the same thing, when Kirby died. --- You must be joking? •• I wish. What happened was, I wrote a eulogy to Kirby to appear in my books. I mentioned that Jim Warden -- in jest, I am sure! -- had said I needed to take care of myself, as "you're the King now!" In my eulogy I pointed out why this was not the case, and why no one was really "the King" now Kirby was gone. Larsen "responded" by tearing a strip off me for my monstrous ego, and saying that if anyone currently working in comics had accomplished something close to what Kirby had done, it was Liefeld. It was all very funny, really. It basically came down to this: ME: Jack Kirby is dead, and I am NOT the new King of Comics. LARSEN: NO YOU'RE NOT!! YOU'RE NOT THE NEW KING OF COMICS!! Er. . . . |
Posted By: Armindo Macieira
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 9:54am
|
Kirby/Liefeld comparison fails at so many (all?) levels (quality of the work, quantity of work produced, creativity,...) that the simple fact someone even entertains the though of it (comic book creator, to make it worse), leaves me speechless! |
Posted By: Michael Todd
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 10:01am
| There was only one Jack (King) Kirby! |
Posted By: Petter Myhr Ness
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 10:04am
|
Exactly WHAT has Liefeld accomplished, I wonder? |
Posted By: Paulo Pereira
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 10:04am
| And Liefeld is the court jester. |
Posted By: Jason Larouse
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 10:16am
| It's funny that so few worthwhile characters have been created over the last 20 years that when someone creates a few that actually stick he gets compared to the architect of the Marvel Universe. |
Posted By: Robert White
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 10:25am
|
So Liefeld creating two questionably substantive characters in Deadpool and Cable made him the new Jack Kirby in Lasen's mind? Nobody has ever come close to Kirby in terms of creative energy. That's not even a debate. As far as putting together long, quality, runs on Marvel comics, JB was and still is the closest thing we have. I'm thinking that was the original point?
|
Posted By: Michael Todd
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 10:31am
| In my opinion there is only one Stan Lee, one Jack Kirby and one John Byrne but none are interchangeable. |
Posted By: Robert White
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 10:42am
|
I can't help but laugh at comic creators who started working on various Marvel and DC projects in the early 2000's have their work, and themselves, described as "legendary." I realize its just hyperbole, but sometimes it's just too much regardless. I LIKE a few of these creators and runs, but I wouldn't ever describe something that new as being legendary. My personal rule for "legendary" status as far as comics are concerned? Twenty years.
|
Posted By: JohnByrne4
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 10:42am
|
It's funny that so few worthwhile characters have been created over the last 20 years that when someone creates a few that actually stick he gets compared to the architect of the Marvel Universe. •• That's the bottom line, isn't it? Look at my career. I HAVE created characters that have become lasting parts of the Marvel Universe. I HAVE worked on stories that have become cornerstones of the Marvel Universe. BUT! The moment I use the phrase "Marvel Universe", everything is put into its proper perspective. All of us who came after Lee and Kirby and Ditko -- the Founding Fathers -- while we may have built much, and while much of what we built may have been pretty amazing, in the end you don't accomplish a whole lot if you build a new wing on a house that isn't there! Without Jack Kirby, most of my work at Marvel simply would not have happened. And that's why comparing ANYONE to Jack is ridiculous. |
Posted By: Robert White
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 10:45am
| One thing I've noticed about you JB is that you have never talked much about the Marvel and DC characters that you have created. I have to admit, I've been a fan of yours since I started reading comics regularly in the mid-80's and I was unaware until just a few years ago that you created Sabretooth, Terrax and a host of others. I wouldn't doubt that many of the "Image Boys" are still unaware of this. |
Posted By: JohnByrne4
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 10:55am
|
One thing I've noticed about you JB is that you have never talked much about the Marvel and DC characters that you have created. I have to admit, I've been a fan of yours since I started reading comics regularly in the mid-80's and I was unaware until just a few years ago that you created Sabretooth, Terrax and a host of others. I wouldn't doubt that many of the "Image Boys" are still unaware of this. •• This, of course, brings me back to that very surreal moment at the Wolfman trial, when he was suing Marvel over ownership of Blade (among others). Sitting in the witness box, under oath, Wolfman was asked if there were people who worked in comics who DIDN'T create characters, and he answered "John Byrne". As I have mentioned before, when I look at the various statues of Marvel characters that decorate my Studio, I am AMAZED at how many are characters I created, co-created, or had a strong hand in developing. All of Alpha Flight, for instance. The Black Queen. The White Queen. Nova. Terrax. Kitty Pryde. Dark Phoenix. Pyro. Avalanche. The list goes on. Sometimes I even joke that Wolverine is "my fault", since Chris and Dave wanted to write him out of the book, and I said "No!" It really does boggle my tiny mind that these characters not only exist, but to many of you are every bit as "real" as the Fantastic Four, or the X-Men, or Spider-Man. Wow!! |
Posted By: Brennan Voboril
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 11:19am
|
Kirkman is wrong. Yeah bad comparison. No one even comes close to Kirby, least of all Liefeld (yucko). Some people get a little success and it goes right to their head and out go the brains.
|
Posted By: Francesco Vanagolli
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 11:23am
|
Kirby: a man who made me read some of the best comics in my life. Liefeld: a man who made me read some of the worst comics in my life. Hey, how could I say they are not the same? Look at those phrases... just one word is different! |
Posted By: Bill Collins
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 11:27am
| The last time i looked Kirby could draw feet! |
Posted By: Brennan Voboril
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 11:38am
| Remember that Captain America Rob drew of the thing with the giant chest? It was funny and sad. |
Posted By: Brian Miller
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 11:39am
|
Liefeld: a man who made me read some of the worst comics in my life. ********** How did he make you read them? By gunpoint? Holding a loved one hostage? |
Posted By: Brian Miller
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 11:42am
| And Robert Kirkman simply MUST read some comics other than ones drawn by Liefeld. It's obvious he's only read books by him and Kirby. |
Posted By: Joe Hollon
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 3:10pm
|
Not to defend the statement (because it is undeniably idiotic) but to at least put a couple things into perspective: 1. Kirkman is young! He's only about 32 years old (I'm pretty sure) and I know he has cited the early Image comics as his favorites when he was a kid and getting into comics himself. 2. He's working with Liefeld on an upcoming project so of course he's going to say nice things about him. 3. Not only is he working with Liefeld, he's also the....president (?) of Image Comics now. So he has lots of reason to try to hype things and say everything Image does is the best in the world. Sort of like how Stan Lee is always quick to praise anything and everything Marvel Comics does even though I can't imagine he really believes it. |
Posted By: Tony Loyd
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 3:46pm
|
Kirby created or co-created Dr. Doom, Magneto and Darkseid. Are there three better villians in comics? And these are the bad guys he created. The more I learn about Kirby, the more I marvel. No pun intended. I wish I had one-tenth of his imagination. |
Posted By: Steven Myers
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 4:12pm
|
Who's Kirkman? I don't think I've ever heard of him before? With all due respect to Steve Ditko, Don Heck, Larry Leiber, and others who drew early issues of Marvel's titles in the 60's (and Joe Simon for co-creating Captain America), Lee and Kirby for all intents and purposes created the Marvel Universe, which has stood the test of time as the most amazing, rich, and colorful fictional world created in the last 50 years! |
Posted By: Paul Simpson Simpson
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 4:25pm
|
Erik Larsen said the same thing, when Kirby died. ******************* Where does he get his weed ? Only really good weed or psychosis would explain that comparison. |
Posted By: Aaron Smith
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 4:56pm
|
It's one thing to say nice things about somebody's work. If somebody likes Liefeld's work, that's fine I guess. But a comparison like this is a complete ignoring of facts. It's like somebody comparing a mediocre ballplayer who happens to hit a home run at a dramatic moment in one big game "the next Babe Ruth." Let's look in forty or fifty years and see if ONE of Liefeld's creations is a part of the foundation of a comics publishing empire. Just ONE, not even the whole bundle of Kirby creations that are so important at both Marvel and DC. If Kirby had only created what might be considered (only in the context of a career of his scope) his minor characters: The Demon, Kamandi, OMAC, Devil Dinosaur and Machine Man, that would still be pretty impressive, but he FOUNDED MOST OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE! And created the New Gods, etc etc etc! Comments like this and that silly Grant Morrison quote last week about comics being better written and drawn now than ever before just make me feel like I'm listening to some combination of stupidity and conceit. I've often noticed that the creators I admire most, whether in comics or music or movies or whatever project a certain modesty and respect for their inspirations and those that have come before them, whether it's JB talking about Kubert or Bellamy or Kirby, or it's Eric Clapton and his reverence for Robert Johnson. I don't see that in some of these more recent creators and it's a shame. |
Posted By: Lance Hill
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 6:04pm
And would Deadpool be any more than a footnote in Marvel's history if it wasn't for Joe Kelly's humorous take on the character, 6 years after his creation? Cable's popularity baffles me though. Why is he even called Cable anyway? |
Posted By: JohnByrne4
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 6:15pm
|
Why is he even called Cable anyway? •• Names stopped having much of anything to do with the characters a long time ago, alas. |
Posted By: Jason Mark Hickok
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 6:18pm
|
Ah, how I remember the Chicago Comic Con (1996 I believe) where Heroes Reborn was promoted heavily and the words "King" and "Liefeld" were used in the same sentence. Memories! I did though at that convention have a great meal with JB, Jim, Benny, Wayne, and Josh at the amazing Carson's! I also got a Mignola sketch at that con. Not a bad weekend at all! |
Posted By: Matt Hawes
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 8:11pm
|
There can never be another Jack Kirby. It's the same mistake people make whenever they say some new music group is the "next Beatles." Jack Kirby, alone and with co-creators, was responsible for so much of what we think of as superhero comics. It's not simply a matter of sales, or even the power of his figures, etc., he revolutionized the industry, created a style that was uniquely his own, and influenced generations of artists (some who may not even realize it, as they were influenced by those Kirby influenced). Liefeld's only true enduring character has been Deadpool. Cable isn't really though of much these days, honestly. And Deadpool is basically a Spider-Man/Punisher mix. But nothing Liefeld has even done rivals Kirby's impact and influence on the comic book industry. |
Posted By: Jason Uresti
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 8:41pm
|
A poor comparison to be sure, but not the most offensive evaluation I've heard recently. That honor goes to a poster on another site who stated that the work of Alan Moore is more meaningful and had a greater impact on comics than that of Osamu Tezuka. |
Posted By: Noah Smith
Date Posted: 25 July 2011 at 8:45pm
|
Suddenly I'm thinking of that deck of terrorist playing cards they made a few years back with Bin Laden as the Ace of Spades. (NO, I am not comparing anyone who has ever worked at Marvel to a terrorist) Who's what card in the Marvel Deck? The Aces would, of course, be Lee, Kirby, Ditko and ... hmm ... Joe Simon? Don Heck? Roy Thomas? Tough call. JB would be pretty high up there. Likely a face card. A Jack maybe? I'm no fan of Leifeld, but he would be in the deck, for the popularity of Cable and such ... lowish, though. Something like the seven of clubs. Thoughts? |
Posted By: Bill Collins
Date Posted: 26 July 2011 at 12:45am
| Joker? |
Posted By: Paulo Pereira
Date Posted: 26 July 2011 at 7:06am
I thought it was possibly because he had cables running through his bionic arm. Not to say I think it's a good name.
|
Posted By: Paulo Pereira
Date Posted: 26 July 2011 at 7:09am
| As far as calling Kirby the "King," I feel it falls short of the mark, and only used because it's alliterative. I feel he's closer to a god. And his Marvel and DC work was his "creation myth." |
Posted By: JohnByrne4
Date Posted: 26 July 2011 at 7:10am
|
Why is he even called Cable anyway? ++ I thought it was possibly because he had cables running through his bionic arm. •• As you may already know, the character was "born" when Liefeld sent in a bunch of drawings and a list of unconnected "cool" names. Louis Simonson basically picked one from column A (the visual) and one from column B (the name) and Cable came to be. |
Posted By: Carmen Bernardo
Date Posted: 26 July 2011 at 7:27am
| I only have one thing to say to the whole wang-doodle: "WTF?" |
Posted By: Aaron Smith
Date Posted: 26 July 2011 at 7:43am
|
Who's what card in the Marvel Deck? The Aces would, of course, be Lee, Kirby, Ditko and ... hmm ... Joe Simon? Don Heck? Roy Thomas? Tough call. JB would be pretty high up there. Likely a face card. A Jack maybe? I'm no fan of Leifeld, but he would be in the deck, for the popularity of Cable and such ... lowish, though. Something like the seven of clubs. Thoughts? - - - - Joker?
***
No. The Joker would be the great Fred Hembeck!
|
Posted By: Armindo Macieira
Date Posted: 26 July 2011 at 8:05am
|
"The Aces would, of course, be Lee, Kirby, Ditko and ... hmm ... Joe Simon?" ************************************************************ ************** John Buscema. |
Posted By: Robert White
Date Posted: 26 July 2011 at 8:11am
| Cable and Deadpool have always felt more like GI Joe characters to me. Deadpool would be funny if he was created ironically...he wasn't. That character is literally an amalgam of Spider-Man (humor), Wolverine (healing factor, Weapon X), and the Punisher (guns and killing). Basically, he embodies everything that went wrong with superhero comics in the early 90's. |
Posted By: Armindo Macieira
Date Posted: 26 July 2011 at 8:25am
|
And would Deadpool be any more than a footnote in Marvel's history if it wasn't for Joe Kelly's humorous take on the character, 6 years after his creation? ************************************************************ *** True! When created Deadpool was a "normal", "kewl" mercenary... it was the humorous take on the character take put him on the map, and that wasn't even Liefeld's work! |
Posted By: Paulo Pereira
Date Posted: 26 July 2011 at 8:37am
| But what about...Supreme! |
Posted By: Michael Todd
Date Posted: 26 July 2011 at 10:31am
Marie Severin has got to at the very least be a Jack. |
Posted By: John Harrison
Date Posted: 26 July 2011 at 1:32pm
|
But what about...Supreme! ******* or Roman my personal favorite in Rob's lack of imagination. Namor is Roman spelled backwards so lets have a guy called Roman... sheesh its right up there with his rock guy he made on the Levi's commercial. ------------- |
Posted By: Colin Fawcett
Date Posted: 26 July 2011 at 1:41pm
| John Romita must surely be in contention as a "Marvel Ace" |
Posted By: Paulo Pereira
Date Posted: 26 July 2011 at 2:26pm
Waiting for his next brilliant creation: Enirevlow.
|
Posted By: Shawn Kane
Date Posted: 26 July 2011 at 6:43pm
| I've always read that Deadpool was actually based on Deathstroke, the Terminator. |
Posted By: Jason Larouse
Date Posted: 26 July 2011 at 9:56pm
|
I've always read that Deadpool was actually based on Deathstroke, the Terminator. ***** The story I've always heard is that when Fabian Nicieza (who was writing New Mutants at the time) saw what Deadpool looked like he thought it was such an over the top Deathstroke rip off that he named him Wade Wilson (Slade Wilson is Deathstroke) as a joke. |
Posted By: Eric Ladd
Date Posted: 27 July 2011 at 4:28am
I hope they got egg roll with that. |