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Kevin Pierce
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2010
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| Posted: 23 March 2005 at 9:13am | IP Logged | 1
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Superman, after all, is not capable of lifting or stopping Thor's
hammer just because he is strong enough (certainly a lot stronger than
the Hulk and please don't use the madder=>stronger cliche, I will
tell you Superman can absord Hulk's radioactivity ala Rampage and
render him useless.... ), he is also "worthy"
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Huh? Superman absord Hulk's radioactivity where did this come from?
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Thor's hammer has been blocked before. By "Superman", that is Count
Nefaria. In an almost exact situation. Written by Shooter (Marvel EiC
at the time) and drawn by Byrne. If you think these guys got it
wrong....
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I don't remember JB posting anything that states he agrees or disagress
with the outcome of the Superman/Thor battle one way or the other. So
perhaps would should let him answer when he gets back.
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Andrew Bitner
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7485
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| Posted: 23 March 2005 at 9:17am | IP Logged | 2
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Magic "gets around" physical law-- it works at a level beyond mundane reality, so that physical qualities like invulnerability matter less or not at all (unless the invulnerability itself is magical). On that basis, I'd bet that Captain Marvel is a lot less vulnerable to magical injury than Superman, because CM's toughness is magic itself. (On the other hand, he may be more vulnerable to other kinds of magical influence or disruption, so it balances out.)
Superman and the Hulk should be equally vulnerable to magic, because in neither case do their own abilities derive from magic. However, the rules vary from writer to writer.
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James C. Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4705
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| Posted: 23 March 2005 at 9:38am | IP Logged | 3
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The Ferrigno Schwarzenegger scenario is apt. One blow from a
sledge (depending on where it landed) is going to hurt but not
necessarily kill. A sledge is not easy to wield and could be
caught / stopped with a little fortune. Sounds like the way Kurt
wrote it to me.
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Kevin Pierce
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2010
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| Posted: 23 March 2005 at 9:46am | IP Logged | 4
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A sledge is not easy to wield and could be
caught / stopped with a little fortune. Sounds like the way Kurt
wrote it to me.
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It's got be a heck of allot of fortune to catch a sledge hammer in full swing with out injurying yourself.
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Kevin Pierce
Byrne Robotics Member
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Location: United States
Posts: 2010
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| Posted: 23 March 2005 at 9:47am | IP Logged | 5
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I'd bet that Captain Marvel is a lot less vulnerable to magical injury than Superman, because CM's toughness is magic itself.
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I would venture to say Captain Marvel is as vulnerable to magical injury as Thor.
Man, I love these type of debates :oP
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James C. Taylor
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Posts: 4705
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| Posted: 23 March 2005 at 9:50am | IP Logged | 6
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Kevin Pierce wrote:
| It's got be a heck of a lot of fortune to catch a sledge hammer in full swing with out injurying yourself. |
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Tell you what, let me swing a sledge at you and you see if you're right.
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Ed Love
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 October 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2712
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| Posted: 23 March 2005 at 10:15am | IP Logged | 7
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what's really funny is that everytime i've seen this argument pop up, i
never see the pro-superman people are arguing that in the first
encounter mjolnir should have just bounced harmlessly off superman,
they're willing to concede that thor is tough enough to at least go toe
to toe with supes. but the thor camp seems to want thor to come out on
top every time.
i thought that busiek did a fine job showing that thor could take out
superman with his hammer, that he's tough enough to do so. but superman
is also fast and strong enough that he's not going to be able to do it
every time. and who knows, next time the edge might go to thor, he
knows a bit more of superman's ability now where he didn't before.
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James C. Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 23 March 2005 at 10:18am | IP Logged | 8
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Ed Love wrote:
| But the Thor camp seems to want Thor to come out on
top every time. |
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For all the talk that Superman fans are the ones who can't stand to see
"their boy" not on top, there sure are a lot of Marvel fans who didn't like
the "one for me, one for you" approach, possibly the same ones who get
mad when I point out that Wonder Woman is stronger than Hercules by
definition.
[Edited to add a crucial "not".]
Edited by James C. Taylor on 23 March 2005 at 10:42am
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Andrew Bitner
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7485
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| Posted: 23 March 2005 at 10:30am | IP Logged | 9
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Kevin Pierce wrote:
| I would venture to say Captain Marvel is as vulnerable to magical injury as Thor. |
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Since Thor is a god (which to me assumes something of a magical quality), I'd agree with you. I'd still say they'd be more resistant to magic than Superman, who is not intrinsically magical.
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Jeff Stockwell
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posts: 1610
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| Posted: 23 March 2005 at 10:31am | IP Logged | 10
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What get me is when folks say, "Superman shouldn't have been able to
catch Thor's hammer because no one would be able to catch a hammer
swung at them in a fight."
To this I simply say: he's freakin' SUPERMAN, for cryin' out loud. He's not
some Average Joe in a bar fight...he's the greatest super-hero ever. It was
an amazingly dramatic moment. Both heroes were battered and
exhausted and Superman pulled a little bit more out at that moment,
surprised Thor and won the fight.
Then, Iron Man, Wonder Man, She-Hulk and others beat the hell out of an
exhausted Superman. You won't hear me whine that even an exhausted
Superman should be able to take on the whole of the Avengers. No. He
was just beat on by an honest-to-God god. It was perfectly acceptable to
have the Avengers' heavy-hitters give him a whuppin'.
I thought Busiek's approach to this story was the best that could be
hoped for given that there would be these kind of arguments for decades
to come no matter who won. (Somehow, I get the feeling I'm going to be
having this same argument in a nursing home in 60 years. At least then I
can use senility as a smokescreen.)
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Kevin Pierce
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2010
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| Posted: 23 March 2005 at 11:11am | IP Logged | 11
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what's really funny is that everytime i've seen this argument pop up, i
never see the pro-superman people are arguing that in the first
encounter mjolnir should have just bounced harmlessly off superman,
they're willing to concede that thor is tough enough to at least go toe
to toe with supes. but the thor camp seems to want thor to come out on
top every time.
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Two things:
1.] I am in the Captain Marvel camp; he is tied for my all time favorite.
2.] If Thor lost to Supermen in the DCU and Superman beat him using his brains
and speed, I honestly wouldn't have a problem with it.
But as I said before Superman beating Thor on his home turf the way he did is
not equal to Batman saying to Captain American "You could beat me"
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Kevin Pierce
Byrne Robotics Member
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Posts: 2010
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| Posted: 23 March 2005 at 11:12am | IP Logged | 12
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Tell you what, let me swing a sledge at you and you see if you're right.
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Sure as heck wouldn't sit there and try to catch it, I'd move
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