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Topic: When did they go wrong with Superman? Post Reply | Post New Topic
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Steven Brake
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Joined: January 01 2016
Posts: 470
Posted: October 30 2021 at 3:36am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

@Brian: An actual mystery - and a really good one - would be appreciated too.

Have any of the Batman films had a mystery in which we see Batman being the World's Greatest Detective? They've had problems to solve, but that's not quite the same thing.
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Tony Marin
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Joined: August 28 2018
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Posted: October 30 2021 at 3:53am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Well the new one is supposed to be a mystery/detective movie but I just can’t build up enough enthusiasm for it and the way it generally looks.
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Steven Myers
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Joined: June 10 2004
Location: United States
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Posted: October 30 2021 at 8:06pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

The Joker killing the Waynes also make him considerably older that Bruce. Therefore he's a truly evil person well before he becomes the Joker. And being the Joker doesn't give you special powers-- so why is he suddenly a big threat, except that it's convenient.

As to Superman--The Movie. There's a lot I don't like, starting with the strange depiction of Krypton. But Christopher Reeve is so perfect in the role. you look past all the problems and just enjoy the film!
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Tony Marin
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Posted: October 30 2021 at 10:59pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

The science fiction aspects of Superman didn’t start making some sort of sense until John revamped it. Whether it was the movie or the comics it was sort of all over the place for a long time. How his powers work, why Krypton blew up and so on were much better explained this time around. Even the reason later on why other Kryptonians never left their home, that they were genetically tethered to the planet was pretty good.
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John Byrne

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Joined: May 11 2005
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Posted: October 31 2021 at 6:42am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

As to Superman--The Movie. There's a lot I don't like, starting with the strange depiction of Krypton.

••

The movie version of Krypton made the smart movie of breaking away from the "futuristic" vision that had been locked into the comics for about forty years.

When Joe Shuster designed Krypton, he was heavily influenced by FLASH GORDON--which was just fine in the mid Thirties. But DC had made no effort yo "update" that future as the years rolled by. It was something that could have been done so easily, just as fashions and vehicles changed with the times, but, no.

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John Byrne

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Joined: May 11 2005
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Posted: October 31 2021 at 6:52am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

On a historical note, it was Dick Giordano's idea to redesign Krypton, so "everyone would know things were different right from the first page."

In later years, after I was no longer on the project, I realized we'd missed a bet, there. The first issue should have started with the football game-- enough to tell everyone "things were different"--and thus the readers would have found out about Clark's history at the same time he did.

Since I was "messing up everything" it would have been fun to torment the hardcore fans by suggesting, however faintly, that maybe Krypton was no longer part of the equation.

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Michael Penn
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Joined: April 12 2006
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Posted: October 31 2021 at 7:17am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Based on this, anyway, I'd say that Superman went wrong around...


...1990.
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Bruce Eaton
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Joined: June 09 2019
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Posted: October 31 2021 at 8:01am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

One of the aspects introduced in the movie that has endured/evolved is the use of the 'S' symbol as the crest of the House of El. 

JB - was this heritage considered in any way for your re-imagining of the character?
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John Byrne

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Joined: May 11 2005
Posts: 128033
Posted: October 31 2021 at 8:06am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

One of the aspects introduced in the movie that has endured/evolved is the use of the 'S' symbol as the crest of the House of El.

JB - was this heritage considered in any way for your re-imagining of the character?

••

No, I found it altogether too precious.

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Eric Jansen
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Joined: October 27 2013
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Posted: October 31 2021 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

When I was a kid, I took whatever they gave me.  In comics or adaptations.  Now, 40+ years later, I can look back on a wealth of reprint and streaming choices and pick the versions that appeal best to me.

BATMAN--Surprisingly, the very short Steve Englehart and/or Marshall Rogers run is my favorite to revisit, followed very closely by the Denny O'Neil and/or Neal Adams issues.  Also a joy are all the Jim Aparo issues, with Bob Haney or others.  For adaptations, nothing has really excited me except the first two Christopher Nolan movies, but the third one's missteps almost retroactively ruins those for me.  The ANIMATED SERIES is the most consistent of the bunch, but those episodes were more enticing to a younger me.

WONDER WOMAN--I have read no great Wonder Woman stories, except possibly the Allen Heinberg & Terry Dodson issues, but that 5-issue run was so short as to be but a blip.  George Perez is a great talent, but choices he made during his run make his WW "a" WW, not "the" WW.  (WW is the only missing run in my JB checklist, so I reserve judgment on his issues.)  I recently rewatched the entire Lynda Carter series as well as the two Gal Gadot movies and both actresses are just incredibly endearing but both versions suffer from some bad storytelling--the second WW movie almost ruins the first one for me, I think a third one will be the tiebreaker.  I also just re-read WW's first Golden Age year and I'm surprised at how witty Marston's writing was and how capable his WW originally was--I finally feel like I have met the "real" WW.  (Now if we could just get Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez to re-draw all those stories!)

SUPERMAN--With Batman, we currently have FOUR different Batmen in live action between Ben Affleck's version, the version on TITANS, the version alluded to on BATWOMAN, and now the Robert Pattinson version coming.  With Superman, we have Henry Cavill on the big screen and the middle-aged father of teenagers on the small screen (echoing the present comic book version), but Dean Cain, Tom Welling, Brandon Routh, Christopher Reeve, and even George Reeves are still strong in my memory.  Somehow, they all seem like Superman to me, and Lois also is presented strongly each time.  In the comics, I do love JB's version, but, in the scheme of things, that ended up being a relatively short run.  I wouldn't mind seeing the Roger Stern/Kerry Gammill/Bob McLeod issues, but, by that time, I had quit again and collecting the back issues seems ponderously confusing.  But any time I find an old Curt Swan issue in a back issue box, I am filled with joy!  I wish they'd collect them in something other than b&w or overpriced hardcover.  That is MY Superman (and Swan's version went quite nicely with Garcia-Lopez's or Neal Adams' too).
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Shawn Kane
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Joined: November 04 2010
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Posts: 3211
Posted: November 02 2021 at 6:07am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Michael summed it up in one picture for me.
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John Byrne

Imaginary X-Man

Joined: May 11 2005
Posts: 128033
Posted: November 02 2021 at 7:27am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Superman has long been subject to what we might call Middle Age Guy Syndrome. No matter where he starts, he quickly adopts the tropes of those who are telling his stories. He gets physically softer—someone once noted that in the years leading up to my arrival he’d actually developed a bit of a paunch. His relationship with Lois became more staid. And, sure enough, it was eventually deemed a good idea for them to get married, and even have a kid. And then a grown kid.

All of which makes the character(s) older and older. And often the characters suffer for this. Green Lantern, Green Arrow and the Flash got “too old” and had to be replaced with “legacy” versions. Mired in the most destructive kind of fan-think it would never occur to the creative teams to simple not play the characters as old.

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