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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 30888
Posted: 28 March 2023 at 3:48pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

My state, the same one in which this latest school shooting occurred,
recently became the first state in the union to ban drag shows. And why?
Because of the danger drag shows present to children. That’s right, too
dangerous for children. What’s the number one cause of death among
children in the US? Firearms.
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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132240
Posted: 28 March 2023 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

If the shooter intends to get away, then they are likely to pick a soft target where they don't think anyone will be shooting back. Conversely, if the shooter is on suicide mission, then the presence of other guns would not be a deterrent. I wouldn't advocate for arming teachers or school administrators, but if security guards are armed and trained that might deter someone.

•••

So, more guns = greater safety

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Dave Kopperman
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3135
Posted: 28 March 2023 at 4:12pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

We have more guns than ever and we also have more mass shootings than ever.  The math is simple.
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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 804
Posted: 28 March 2023 at 4:28pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

We agree that getting rid of assault rifles and reducing the overall number of guns is the right thing to do.

Keep working on that, but in the meantime, lets be realistic.  The type of gun control that is being called for by most people on this board is unlikely to happen anytime in the near future.  Consequently, something else must be done to address the problem right now.  We need a multi-pronged attack on the problem of school shootings.  So other than advocating for gun control, what would you do?
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4499
Posted: 28 March 2023 at 5:04pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I can't imagine being a parent today and these kinds of fears including gun violence over your child simply going to school to get an education. It really is one of the foundational elements of our western societies. The boiled down 'with us or against us' absolutism never fits anything much as well as being impractical. The Brady laws lapsing was intentional and have been shown to benefit only the gun manufacturers and their lobby arm essentially what the NRA rifle/gun safety promotion organization has become. I suppose the lobby group 'contributions' benefited some office seekers, but that too has been a major negative.

I've been engaging in arguments and discussions about gun rights for decades. I used to mention a theoretical 'right' to not have to bear arms, and think there is still something in that. I personally refuse, for a number of reasons, to ever have anything beyond a rifle in a very rural setting. You have been in a civilian society arms race for so long now... Switzerland and Japan are terribly inappropriate comparison countries I've seen often mentioned (for one thing they are both very homogenized in populace). People in the U.S. will not bow to state of restriction that Japanese or even Canadian citizens accept, but as even a majority of NRA members (along with police) poll as being for greater regulation (also the best path to ensuring people keep rights as 'responsible' owners) something will have to give.
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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 804
Posted: 28 March 2023 at 6:17pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply


(Please provide links to the data you are posting. -- Tim)




Edited by Tim O Neill on 28 March 2023 at 6:22pm
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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 804
Posted: 28 March 2023 at 8:09pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

"I can't imagine being a parent today and these kinds of fears including gun violence over your child simply going to school to get an education."

According to the National Center for Education Statistics, there were 783 school shootings between 2000 and 2021, including 314 shootings that resulted in a fatality (some of those involved multiple fatalities, so more than 314 children have been killed).  Link:  nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/a01

The same article shows that the number of school shootings rose from 13 in 2001-02 to 56 in 2006-07.  Then it dropped to 14 in 2007-08, 11 in 2009-2010, 17 in 2010-2011, and 14 the next year.  2008-09 is an outlier, with 41 shootings.  

Since 2015-2016, the number of shootings has increased every year, at an alarming rate.  That year there were 27 shootings, followed by 38, 59, 78, 77, and 93 in 2020-21.  

Per Education Week, in 2022 there were 51 school shootings with injuries or deaths, including 140 fatalities (they don't show the total number of shootings, which is likely more than 100, including shootings that did not result in an injury or death).

The numbers show we are headed in the wrong direction very quickly.  This is a national crisis.

Having said that, as cold as it sounds, lets put the numbers in perspective.  There are 130,029 elementary and secondary schools in the U.S.; 97,568 public schools, and 32,461 private schools.  Link: www.prosperityforamerica.org/how-many-schools-in-the-us/

Statistically, even if there were 200 school shootings per year, the likelihood of your child being shot at school is extremely small.  We need to do something about this, but it doesn't make sense to live your life in fear of your child being killed at school. School shootings are a relatively small (but extremely important) facet of a much larger problem.  Children are much more likely to encounter gun violence at home, on their way to and from school, and in other places.  

According to the CDC, in 2020 gun violence overtook automobile accidents as the leading cause of death for young people in America. More than 4300 young Americans (defined as under 19 years old) died from firearm related injuries. Link: bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61192975

Overall, 45,222 Americans were killed by guns that year.

However, according to Education Week, only three people (2 children and one adult) were killed in school shootings.

Playing devil's advocate- the CDC estimates there are more than 390 million guns owned in the U.S.

45,000 deaths is a small number compared to the number of guns owned, which bolsters the argument that the overwhelming majority of gun owners are responsible.  That is one reason why passing gun control legislation will be difficult.

Personally, I favor some additional gun control, but given how difficult it will be to achieve, it shouldn't be the only solution we turn to.





Edited by John Wickett on 28 March 2023 at 8:12pm
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7605
Posted: 28 March 2023 at 9:05pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Only in America can someone post with a straight face that 45,000 deaths
is a small number compared to the amount of guns owned.



You own a gun for one purpose only - to kill something. Animal or human,
doesn’t really matter. You own the gun because it can kill something. That’s
its only purpose in existence.

Now I know there are lots of arguments about target shooting & such &
such, but, honestly? I don’t give a shit.



45,000 deaths in a year says whatever argument you postulate is invalid.
Show me any other thing that kills 45,000 people a year where those in
authority have an attitude of ‘Well, there’s nothing we can do here. So our
solution is more of the thing that’s causing the deaths’.



It’s ludicrous. It’s like saying the solution to road deaths was to let people
drive as fast as they want.
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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 804
Posted: 28 March 2023 at 9:17pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

You're missing my point.  Every one of the 45,000 is a tragedy, which is why I support gun control.  

But statistically, that number represents 1 in 8,667 guns causing a death.  The number of gun owners who use their guns to kill another person is extremely small in comparison to the number of responsible gun owners.

Because of that, it will always be difficult to pass laws that require people to give up their guns.  

I'm not saying that's right.  I'm just saying that's the way it is.
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4499
Posted: 28 March 2023 at 9:21pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

May your loved ones never be of the statistically minuscule number of fatalities, nor otherwise severely impacted bodily, by offensive devices marketed as defensive ones!
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14812
Posted: 28 March 2023 at 9:58pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply


 QUOTE:
But statistically, that number represents 1 in 8,667 guns causing a death.

And that is meaningful how? The US has more guns than people. Of course a small percentage of guns are going to be involved in gun violence. The issue is that the large numbers of guns creates easy access to guns being used in gun violence. 


The US has double the number of guns per capita than the next closest country while being the third largest country in terms of population in the world. Think about that combination. 


 QUOTE:
The number of gun owners who use their guns to kill another person is extremely small in comparison to the number of responsible gun owners.

Three in ten US adults own a gun, while four in 10 US adults live in a household with a gun. In a country that has more guns than people. 


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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 804
Posted: 28 March 2023 at 10:46pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

"And that is meaningful how?"

It gives statistical weight to the argument that the number of guns isn't the problem; rather, it is that a statistically small group of people who shouldn't have access to guns are able to gain access.

Consequently, for a huge percentage of the electorate, any efforts towards gun control will always be focused on restricting that group of people, rather than restricting guns.  

That equates to a huge amount of resistance to any limitation on gun ownership.  Understanding that is the case, we shouldn't rely ONLY on statutes that limit access to guns to reduce gun violence and protect schools.
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