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Rob Ocelot Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 December 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 1231
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Posted: 15 December 2013 at 8:03pm | IP Logged | 1
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With the Hulk's power level varying wildly throughout the character's existence you can easily chalk some of the Hulk's defeats to times when he was just not lifting 50+ tonnes.
I mean, in one of the Steranko Cap issues the Hulk grabs Cap by the wrists yet somehow manages not to tear him in half!
Edited by Rob Ocelot on 15 December 2013 at 8:04pm
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 15 December 2013 at 8:37pm | IP Logged | 2
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Thor wasn't able to take on the Celestials simply because he had a strong arm. It was his very nature as a God that allowed him to operate within their sphere. The Hulk and Namor are not cosmic in scope or power and therefore would likely not fare well in single combat with a being of cosmic proportions. However, in regards to sheer strength and fighting prowess, they have proven themselves on a par with the Thunder God. I find an over-reliance upon playing the "implications game" to be a serious detriment to good comics writing. If Robin turns 22 over here, but you still need Jimmy Olsen to be 18, then screw it. Keep Jimmy 18. Let the heavens and earth fall. Let the righteous fury of fandom assembled align itself against you. Operating within a shared universe should not carry with it a blanket obligation to slavishly cater to whims granted by one editoral team without your approval. Hell, should the book fall into your hands, make Robin 18 again yourself. Yes, fans will snark, but if the story is a better story with a young character and you don't want Batman to be pushing 50, then accept that you're writing fiction, and write the story the way it works best. Some editors believe that only a strict adherence to Continuithink is "professional." They're wrong, but what the hell. Write it their way until they self-destruct over the size of Cap's shield and then write it well afterwards. Just because Thor beat Namor in FloppoGuppies Annual #2 in 1962 does not mean that every writer thereafter is beholden to that outcome. In fact, you do yourself and the readers a disservice to remove the concept of imagination from the equation and simply check the box that says, "Yes, I read and shall abide by FloppoGuppies Annual #2 and all it's addendant implications, now and forevermore..." Readers pick up the book to see a contest. Let it be one.
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Steve Lyons Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 September 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2171
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Posted: 15 December 2013 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | 3
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I tend to think of it in terms of sports teams. On any given Sunday almost anyone is defeatable. How many times have the Packers smacked the Lions in the mouth? And how many times has the reverse happened? Not perhaps the best example, but I believe the concept is valid. As long as we're not talkin' Daredevil v. Galactus here, I'm willing to accept that there's enough power amongst our heroes that the difference between success and failure is miniscule. Whichever way the coin flips that day decides it. Or, whomever's book the fight takes place in wins it.
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Steve Lyons Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 September 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2171
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Posted: 15 December 2013 at 8:53pm | IP Logged | 4
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BTW, is anyone getting a little Zoolander vibe from the last panel Brian posted? Like maybe Thor was POSING for that shot?
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Marc M. Woolman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2094
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Posted: 15 December 2013 at 9:48pm | IP Logged | 5
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Which era of comics are you going by? There was a Stan Lee scripted/Eric Larsen pencilled Thor issue that quite dramatically showed Thor couldn't handle the Hulk, I think it was from the late 80's or early 90's, more recently, in the planet Hulk saga, the Hulk faced off against the Silver Surfer and acquitted himself quite well. I wouldn't put too much stock in stories from the 70's, that was Marvel's shittiest era in my opinion.
Edited by Marc M. Woolman on 15 December 2013 at 9:50pm
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Rob Van Gessel Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 September 2004 Location: United States Posts: 335
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Posted: 15 December 2013 at 10:40pm | IP Logged | 6
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"Like maybe Thor was POSING for that shot?"
It does look suspiciously set up!
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Rob Van Gessel Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 September 2004 Location: United States Posts: 335
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Posted: 15 December 2013 at 11:29pm | IP Logged | 7
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"Thor wasn't able to take on the Celestials simply because he had a strong arm"
Um - you do know a play on words when you see it, right?
==================================================== If Thor limits himself to sinew-against-sinew, the only reason he or Namor or the Thing really have trouble with the Hulk is when his anger management issues increase his strength by some unknown exponent. =====================================================
Since Namor is coming up in our geeky repartee, here's another one of my " inconsistencies": Namor sometimes nearly panics when he's losing a fight and he needs re-hydration. He finally gets himself all wet and he's suddenly like Popeye on spinach. Except that when he's NOT in the water he is still often in trouble.
The Thing - even in his weaker days when Namor was new on the scene - dragged Namor out of the water to polish him off. Even though Namor was still wet, he was freaking out, nearly beseeching Grimm not to follow through with the punch.
My own reconciliation: Namor's advantage is in the water, not so much because of increased strength alone but the additional aid of blinding speed when he's in the sea.
At any rate, at the end of the day, at least in MY rule book ;), Thor and the Surfer are in a league in which the Hulk cannot prevail.
=================================================
Yet, another observation: the comics writers often if not always fail to imagine the full abilities of the character. In FF, for example, Sue's potential skills - ESPECIALLY in the Lee-Kirby issues - are very poorly conceived. If I had her force field power and I saw, say, Will Ferrell coming at me in his thong, and I thought his b.o. might be too strong for my field to hold him, I could project flexible (not steel-hard but of a rubbery consistency) Raging Waters-type slides under his feet to keep him off balance and enclose him in spheres suspended off the ground, while simultaneously projecting a force sphere inside his windpipe to close off his air. OR, if killing was ok with me, I might project a field within him and pop him open like the chest-burster in Alien!
She's potentially one of the deadliest in comics, that Sue, if coached right with the tricks! I mean, LET the chick go WILD! (The reason I'll always stick to the appellation "Invisible Girl").
Holds true for a good number of comics characters. How they wield their power is intrusively limited by a writer.
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Greg Kirkman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 15775
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Posted: 15 December 2013 at 11:30pm | IP Logged | 8
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Spider-Man was also a wife-beater, and yet he somehow gets a pass. Double-standard!
===================================================
What??????? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN # 226, my friend. Perhaps the nadir of the Clone Saga.
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Rob Van Gessel Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 September 2004 Location: United States Posts: 335
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Posted: 15 December 2013 at 11:32pm | IP Logged | 9
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Clarification: "...limited by a writer" was not a shot at John's books. He was a departure from many said limitations. The image of Sue above is meant to illustrate the damage she's capable of.
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Jeffrey Rice Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 September 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1161
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Posted: 15 December 2013 at 11:35pm | IP Logged | 10
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But the art in the first pic! Just awesome!
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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2402
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Posted: 16 December 2013 at 4:08am | IP Logged | 11
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I think part of the appeal of comics (at least the big companies) is that we get to enjoy the possibilities of a shared universe. To enjoy benefits of that shared universe, one should also play by the rules of that shared universe. But characters are people too and, as was said, "can have a bad day." The facts are (or the RULES are at least) that the Hulk has definitely been shown to get stronger or weaker based on his anger level, and the same for the Sub-Mariner based on his hydration. The Silver Surfer apparently was made weaker at some point, so his power level is also up for grabs. The only character mentioned here that should always be consistent is Thor, but if you're judging his power level by that of others who are variable, then the point is moot.
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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2402
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Posted: 16 December 2013 at 4:10am | IP Logged | 12
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Of course, if they've just retrofitted Batman with a five-year-old career but then kept his ten-year-old son (conceived halfway through his Batman career), that just makes me want to rip up all the New 52s I see.
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