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Andy Mokler Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 January 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2799
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Posted: 05 March 2020 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | 1
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I believe the zero tolerance policy has impacted the immigration numbers not fear of being separated from one's children. For too long, I think it was known and counted on that if you had a child with you you would get released.
"...who had no control over what their parents did." That's the point. The parents are the one's who put these kids in a traumatizing situation. They are the monsters. Whether it was ignorance, a ploy or stupidity it was those parents who chose to subject and risk their own kids.
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Steven Myers Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5630
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Posted: 05 March 2020 at 10:10pm | IP Logged | 2
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Somewhere people are equating the refugees, including the caravans, with "illegals". Coming to the border and asking for asylum is not illegal. Ironically, one of the reasons cited for so many people trying to enter the USA now is fear that Trump will end immigration and close the border.
My main objection is the President's rhetoric, where he talks of the people wanting to come here as if they were all criminals, and very bad people. People we need to build a wall to keep out. Even though anyone with a little bit of understanding knows the wall is a waste of money (paid for by Mexico??).
There's some irony that conservatives claim that gun laws can't prevent crime but a wall can prevent illegal immigration. Perhaps we should build a wall around all the guns? That would keep bad guys from getting them, right?
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 06 March 2020 at 8:32am | IP Logged | 3
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Andy M, "Stone walls do not a prison make, nor iron bars a cage." Don't play at semantics here, sir. These children have been apprehended and are illegally imprisoned. They have done nothing wrong; they are not free to leave; they are treated in a manner inappropriate for children.
I personally believe that a zero tolerance policy is never correct. There are always situations that require consideration and judgment. I personally believe that it is better to not punish the innocent, even if the guilty slip through. And if these children are not innocent, I don't know who is.
I grant you that some are just entering the country to get into the USA for a better life. And equally, some are fleeing something so heinous that it's worth the chance. In fact, they might find it worse than even being separated from their children, so long as they are safe and alive. That's a horrific choice between bad and worse.
Once again, the administration created a probably, and then takes credit for solving their own disaster. I'll put it to you as plainly as possible - is it right to separate young children and infants from their parents?
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Fred J Chamberlain Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4020
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Posted: 06 March 2020 at 10:54am | IP Logged | 4
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The real litmus test for the Supreme Court is coming up. The appellate judge’s ruling effectively takes away any checks and balances. Disgusting and horrifying, regardless of who is in office.
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Andy Mokler Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 January 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2799
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Posted: 06 March 2020 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | 5
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Once again, the administration created a probably, and then takes credit for solving their own disaster. I'll put it to you as plainly as possible - is it right to separate young children and infants from their parents?
What an odd question when proposing consideration and judgment. There is no simply about it and I think that's part of the problem. You say kids should never be detained and I don't see how that's a reality. Are you suggesting an open border to "kids". What would be the cutoff? 17 years and 364 days of age? 16? 12?
The main thing that I am sympathetic to are those who are legally trying to get into the country and the wait time. I understand the impatience and even the rolling of the dice to circumvent the rules. But that doesn't mean you get a free pass if you get caught. It also doesn't mean that if you have a child with you it's a get out of jail free card and all bets are off.
So, what are the authorities left to do? The kids have to be processed through the system and they have to put them somewhere until they can be taken care of. From what I've read, officials have repeatedly requested and been denied funding to properly handle/house all involved.
I don't think the answer is to just not detain illegal immigrants because you don't have ideal accommodations in every area.
As far as separating children from their parents, no, I wouldn't pursue that in the manner that caused so many problems. It obviously shouldn't be a permanent separation. But yes, I would likely separate kids from anyone being arrested. Kids go to social services and adults get arrested. Isn't that how everyone in the US is treated?
Edited by Andy Mokler on 06 March 2020 at 12:42pm
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4583
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Posted: 06 March 2020 at 1:24pm | IP Logged | 6
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I was very sceptical initially about using the term cages, and people just showing up and blocking buses from moving people... but what started coming to light after that pretty much proved people were being abused. Not good and very much not in-keeping with how the U.S. has behaved historically. In the late '30s and early '40s while Canada had people in charge shaming us forever by turning European refugees away and saying things like one more is too many, the U.S. was really the light of the world! The U.S. has earned the world's respect and gratitude many times and it is hard to witness someone callously undoing that and going in the opposite direction... especially abandoning the Kurds and withholding approved aid to The Ukraine until Trump can get some mud to throw at Biden. Those two should make any true conservative boiling mad and staying that way!
O'Connell simply blocking Obama from doing his basic job and appointing a judge was also disgusting and weaselly. Now Trump has put entirely unqualified people in positions over many very qualified people with more experience, but what would Trump know about a real career. He has destroyed careers honest and hard-working people have spent a lifetime building and this undermines your foundations in many areas. It's going to be a big job to expose and explain to those who wish to stay willfully ignorant and then to begin to repair that damage. Obama and his focus on the affordable care was unfortunately at the expense of bringing the financial institutions and those with oversight back into line with regulations (tossed out clumsily as stimulus) which had been proven to work, but he did not know Ted Kennedy's death and what followed would effectively lose him power because of the allow nothing tea party revolutionaries... who now allow insane things with paper-thin pretexts (not to mention name-calling and blaming all save themselves).
Not a game. Even Mister T would not pity the fool of a fool! This is the information age, take your nose out of b.s. websites and junk tv channels and find proven sources to rely on while we still have those!
Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 06 March 2020 at 1:27pm
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6144
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Posted: 06 March 2020 at 1:45pm | IP Logged | 7
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Andy: As far as separating children from their parents, no, I wouldn't pursue that in the manner that caused so many problems. It obviously shouldn't be a permanent separation. But yes, I would likely separate kids from anyone being arrested. Kids go to social services and adults get arrested. Isn't that how everyone in the US is treated?
*** You're gone, Andy. That rabbit hole was deep and down you dove.
Maximum punishment for crossing a border illegally is 6 months jail time if convicted.
...Not years of jail without trial and having your children kidnapped. Not the cruel torture of having your nine year old daughter forced to care for other people's sick infants. Not having your children sexual assaulted by guards.
These are the predictable and inevitable consequences of this administration's policy.
Creating an epic humanitarian crisis on our own soil to pursue the stated intention of stopping illegal crossing is illogical and insane. At some point, we'll have to choose between amending this wrong, or doubling down with more cruelty.
Your argument leads only to more cruelty.
Edited by Mark Haslett on 06 March 2020 at 1:48pm
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Andy Mokler Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 January 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2799
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Posted: 06 March 2020 at 2:13pm | IP Logged | 8
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Your argument leads only to more cruelty.
No one is forcing anyone to illegally cross the border. Neither is anyone forcing them to subject their children to that endeavor. And no one is defending those who have abused their power and/or exceeded it.
But conflating policy with individuals who have broken the law themselves isn't right either. A border guard abusing someone isn't policy, it's that guard breaking the law.
At the end of the day, it seems to me that this administration first enforced the law rather than letting illegal aliens off scott free, then course corrected and ultimately has reduced illegal immigration and increased the number of legal applications being processed.
It doesn't seem to me that this administration is denying entry into the country, it is just not turning a blind eye to it being done illegally.
Edited by Andy Mokler on 06 March 2020 at 2:14pm
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14821
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Posted: 06 March 2020 at 2:16pm | IP Logged | 9
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"...who had no control over what their parents did." That's the point. The parents are the one's who put these kids in a traumatizing situation. They are the monsters. Whether it was ignorance, a ploy or stupidity it was those parents who chose to subject and risk their own kids.
——-
Monsters? Whether these are economic migrants trying to escape extreme poverty or refugees trying to escape gang violence, I’m not going to call someone a monster for wanting a better life for them and their children. You make it sound like these are people that were just too lazy to wait in line. And in the case of asylum-seekers, you have to first be in the US to ask for asylum. Crossing the border in that scenario is not illegal.
What is the US’s moral responsibility for the refugee crisis? Cartel violence in Mexico? It’s not Mexicans buying up all those drugs for themselves. American drug users are providing the revenue that empowers the cartel.
MS-13? That was a gang that started in the US. INS was discriminating against Central America refugees escaping civil wars in Guatemala and El Salvador by not granting them asylum protection (in rates compared to other refugees), leaving them undocumented immigrants. Which left a bunch of undocumented teens who were more easily exploited because they could not attend school and were not in it. Which resulted in gangs who ended up in the American prison system, which focuses more on incarceration vs rehabilitation, and come out of the system an even more violent gang. Then the US took all those violent gang members and dumped them in El Salvador, where they terrorized the local population.
And let’s not get started on the century of US intervention in Latin America which resulted in dictatorships and economic disaster that people needed to escape from.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14821
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Posted: 06 March 2020 at 2:19pm | IP Logged | 10
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It doesn't seem to me that this administration is denying entry into the country, it is just not turning a blind eye to it being done illegally.
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This is expressly false. Asylum seekers were being turned away at the ports of entry. Coming to the port of entry and asking for asylum IS HOW YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO IT.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6144
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Posted: 06 March 2020 at 2:44pm | IP Logged | 11
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ANDY: No one is forcing anyone to illegally cross the border. Neither is anyone forcing them to subject their children to that endeavor. And no one is defending those who have abused their power and/or exceeded it.
But conflating policy with individuals who have broken the law themselves isn't right either. A border guard abusing someone isn't policy, it's that guard breaking the law.
***
You see problems with "conflating" but not with separating children from their parents.
Naivete is forgivable in children. Not in policy which causes irreparable damage to thousands and thousands of human beings.
When you say, "At the end of the day, it seems to me that this administration first enforced the law rather than letting illegal aliens off scott free, then course corrected and ultimately has reduced illegal immigration and increased the number of legal applications being processed," you are approving them "cracking eggs to make an omelet" approach.
But the child-separation has not ceased. The separated families are not being restored. The children remain in cages. And the statistics you boast of are temporary at best. The cruelty that is indeed forcing people to flee to America will not stop without actual and massive changes within the nations to our South.
But for the moment, Trump-whisperers such as yourself can humble-brag that a few bad apples raping children was not the fault of an otherwise successful policy.
You say Trump "is just not turning a blind eye to border-crossing being done illegally," as if turning a blind eye to child separation, abuse and cruelty is somehow a step UP.
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Eric Ladd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 4506
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Posted: 06 March 2020 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | 12
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Steve Martin used to have a bit during his stand up routine where he proposed a solution for over population. The joke was, “death for parking violation”. No one would be forcing people to park illegally.
The immigration policy is draconian, not the least bit appropriate for the crime or humane and in a word, overkill. I hope karma is suitably evil for the people that created it and support it.
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