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Topic: Marvel Outdoing Themselves Again (Spoilers) Post Reply | Post New Topic
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 22 April 2017 at 5:00pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I'm pretty sure Warren Ellis is responsible for the freaking god awful term "floppies." I always hated it too. Graphic novels, floppies.. It's like they're ashamed to call them comics. At least graphic novel fits if, it's, you know, an original story that's quite lengthy like a novel. But graphic novel seems to be a blanket term for any comic collections even reprints. Either way, it's all just comic books

And Captain America was always evil and the nazis won World War 2? The latter idea wasn't even original when Philip K Dick wrote the Man in High Tower, but at least I can get behind a good alternate timeline story. But in this it seems like they are trying to make everything that's ever been published an alternate timeline and their fan fiction as the real thing. Kind of like when Spider-Man had always been a clone. Boy, that story worked out so well for Marvel, didn't it?
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Jason Larouse
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Posted: 22 April 2017 at 8:55pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

So Marvel has started rolling out art for their next "event" after this one called legacy:

http://www.newsarama.com/images/i/000/196/768/original/Marve l_Legacy_Joe_Quesada.jpg

Apparently they are bringing a lot of their characters back to their regular status quo after all of the backlash they got replacing so many of them. That is definately a good thing, but it's funny to me that classic Captain America is front and center in every promotional material. It's like they are making absolutely zero attempt to try and sell the event that's coming out right now as legit. I mean we all know it isn't, but 3 days has to be some kind of record. 
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Andy Mokler
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Posted: 22 April 2017 at 9:53pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

A comic book reviewer I know was talking a bit about "Legacy" and said they wanted to get more of the Marvel characters back to their roots, to their "legacy".  You know, like Totally Awesome Hulk.

Confused, I asked him how Amadeus Cho as the Hulk's alter ego was a legacy character?  He then got confused and said:  "Well, it's the green Hulk, a legacy character."  

<sigh>
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 23 April 2017 at 5:33am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Even though I have no faith in Marvel actually making me interested again, I was equally cynical about Rebirth last year. I enjoy the DC books that I'm reading these days so there's a chance I may buy something from Marvel again (I actually liked X-Men Gold #1).
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Gundars Berzins
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Posted: 23 April 2017 at 6:54am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

With Marvel and DC I've so much to say... groan, sigh, sob.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 23 April 2017 at 7:25am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I think that the main thing that so many writers don't remember is that comic books are science fiction, as defined by Robert A. Heinlein; the writer takes one element and changes it, and shows the results of that change as it affects society.

Obviously that isn't a stringent description of comics, but it is pretty suitable to they way they should be, I think; society and the real world as they are, and how a mystery man - one with powers, one with magic, one with trained skills far beyond those of the majority of humanity - would interact with that reality.

Naturally, that adapts as time passes and they interact with each other, and questions about origins may require subtle changes to reality (e.g., a wizard named Shazam or Khufu in early Egypt). But for the most part, I think it works best by not futzing with reality too much.

"The Nazis won World War II" changes that reality BEFORE the idea of super heroes changes it; and thus, the entire concept is gone to hell. It demonstrates why real world roadmarker events should not interfere with a comic book story (e.g., who landed on the moon first, why didn't super heroes win the war [you pick the war], why haven Reed Richards or Tony Stark or Will Magnus released societal changing technology, etc.)

That's why stories such as JFK being a mutant, or the Justice Society saving FDR from a bunch of battle crazed valkyries, etc. feels too much a violation of a starting point for episodic heroic fantasy - in this case,  comics.

And of course, doing it now when comics are not exactly the highest revenue, most popular form of entertainment by several magnitudes seems to hurt them more than help them.
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 23 April 2017 at 8:08am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Not all comic books are science fiction. 
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Jason Larouse
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Posted: 23 April 2017 at 9:31am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I agree with you in principle Eric, but that ship kinda departed a long time ago with characters like Apocalypse messing with things thousands of years in the past. 
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John Byrne

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Posted: 23 April 2017 at 10:26am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Not all comic books are science fiction.

•••

Probably why Eric said this is not a stringent description.

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Mike Norris
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Posted: 23 April 2017 at 11:09am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

The connection to real world events varies from character to character. Captain America is/was very rooted to real world events. Batman and Superman not so much, but at the same time they did dip their toes into current events in their nascent period. The JSA was heavily oriented towards WWII shorty before and after Pearl Harbor, but backed off for most of the war. Then near the wars' end they did a couple of WWII stories again.
The early 60s, especially at Marvel had a lot of Cold War connections 


Edited by Mike Norris on 23 April 2017 at 11:10am
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Ted Pugliese
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Posted: 23 April 2017 at 6:32pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Just another reason I do not buy new comics anymore.
Sad.
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Joe Smith
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Posted: 23 April 2017 at 7:25pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Another reason I feel the artist is more important than the writer:
If they get a smokeshow art team to produce this I'll still buy it for the
beautiful drawings.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 24 April 2017 at 1:44am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

I don't think I would, Joe. I did buy an ancillary issue of Civil War years ago just because it was drawn by Howard Chaykin, but they can't get Chaykin to draw the whole series. I'm trying to think who they could get to "stunt" certain issues and drag me into buying those individually... Chaykin? P. Craig Russell? Alan Davis, maybe, maybe not... But whatever the allure of those individual issues, there's no way I'd buy the whole mess. 

Even if they got someone of that level to do the entire thing, I still think I'd contain myself to an issue or two, tops. A little goes a long way sometimes, and the good still wouldn't outweigh the bad in this instance. At bottom, its still a story I don't want to read, and I don't care how pretty they make it.


Edited by Brian Hague on 24 April 2017 at 1:45am
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 24 April 2017 at 7:03am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

We seen Marvel attempt U-turns before (Heroes Reborn, Age of Heroes). And for all we know, this time they may actually mean to recapture the original spirit of the great Marvel stories and characters. But the attempt will be either half-hearted, or will fail. After so many years of following a style and vision defined by Quesada and Bendis, the editors and writers probably just don't know how to do anything else. They'll go back to deconstructing heroes ASAP. More importantly, there may not be any fans of the good old stuff reading and buying Marvel comics anymore. We've all been chased away years ago (it's certainly been more than a decade since I've been a Marvel reader). And in recent years they've actually dismantled their own franchises like the X-Men and FF. Out of spite of the traditional stories and characters, in love with their own voice, they've destroyed their own market. 

Edited by Joe Zhang on 24 April 2017 at 7:09am
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 24 April 2017 at 7:16am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

To add: it's not too late for Marvel to get a formerly rabid Marvel fan like me buying their books again. But it's going to take years of steady, impressive effort to convince me. A one-off "event" or publishing initiative is hardly going to do it. 
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John Byrne

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Posted: 24 April 2017 at 7:33am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

When did the "events" begin to take over? There are two instances that spring to mind immediately as likely first dominoes to fall. One was SUPERMAN vs THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, which was a planned (and genuine) event, and the other was the Death of Phoenix, which, while genuine, was not planned.

But both planted in the minds of some the notion that it was possible to draw more customers by shouting louder than anybody else. And as the audience shrank (ironically, in no small part due to these continuous and disruptive "events") those who were more easily fooled by such things began to increase in percentage within that audience. And the Companies, being business masquerading as Art, and not the other way 'round, started more and more to pander to that part of the audience.*

Decades ago there was a B.C. newspaper strip in which one of the characters discovered "CLAMS GOT LEGS!" Friend and Forum member Paul Gibney long ago paraphrased that to represent the attitudes of the Publishers: "FANS GOT BUCKS!" As long as there were wallets to loot, the Publishers would loot them as deeply as they could.

And if, in the end, it was a case of diminishing returns, that didn't matter, as long as there were returns now.

_______________________

* During the years when I was trying to make my way into the Biz, it was common to refer to comics as "an artform masquerading as a business." This was not meant to be complimentary. It referred to what seemed the habit of publishing titles that had little chance of selling really well, but were considered "quality product." Something the publishers could be proud to call their own. The Len Wein/Bernie Wrightson SWAMP THING was one example. (Hard to believe, but X-MEN was on that list, once upon a time.) Somewhere in the late Eighties, early Nineties, that flipped, and it became all about the money.

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Tim Cousar
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Posted: 24 April 2017 at 1:23pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

"The Business That Swallowed an Artform"
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 24 April 2017 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Am I off base by saying, this Secret
Empire story kinda craps on the legitimate
sacrifice made by veterans who actually
served and gave their lives to keep this
idea from actually happening? I could see
maybe a three part arch, but a year and a
half?
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Brian Skelley
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Posted: 24 April 2017 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

 Shane Matlock wrote:
I'm pretty sure Warren Ellis is responsible for the freaking god awful term "floppies." I always hated it too. Graphic novels, floppies.. It's like they're ashamed to call them comics. At least graphic novel fits if, it's, you know, an original story that's quite lengthy like a novel. But graphic novel seems to be a blanket term for any comic collections even reprints. Either way, it's all just comic books


For the entire time I've ever heard the phrase 'floppies' to refer to individual issues of a comic, this thread is the only place I've ever heard it used in any way derogatory. I've seen the phrase used convey what format the comic was in.. trade vs digital vs the standard comic we all came up with and love. The comics we consider the standard issue aren't rigged and do flop if you hold them in one hand. The term (as far as I've ever seen in all these years) was never meant as a insult. While there are some people that do think anything printed is obsolete tech, I've never heard, nor seen any of them in comics.

 Honestly it's bizarre how this thread has taken the phrase to such a dark place.. 
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 25 April 2017 at 3:00pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

The term seemed kind of insulting to me from its first use. What's the point of the phrase "floppy/floppies" anyway? Does there need to be another one besides comic book? In my mind, it's always been a derogatory way to indicate that graphic novels/ tpb collections are better than the monthly issues (which at the time it started being used it was being pushed that monthly comics were becoming obsolete and graphic novels were going to take over). Anyway, if you really need a term besides comics or comic books, doesn't "monthly" or "monthlies" serve the same purpose as "floppy/floppies"? I mean, if you Google "floppy" and "comics" the very first result is someone saying it's not a derogatory term, but why the need to defend it constantly if it's perceived as being derogatory it's probably because a lot of people find it just that. 

Edit: Quote from the tenth result on the "floppy comics" Google search is a CBR article from 2013 that states: "Two to three years ago, it seemed inevitable: Single issue comic books, derisively called 'floppies,' were on the way out. Graphic novels were the future for most publishers, and floppies weren’t even working as loss-leaders."

http://www.cbr.com/so-much-for-the-death-of-floppies/

So, yeah, this thread is hardly the first time people have found the term "floppy" derogatory. It's been divisive from its very first use by a guy that hated superhero comics (even though they gave him a career). 

I will say that Steven Grants idea at the time to call them "pamfs" instead (I assume short for pamphlets) is actually way worse. 


Edited by Shane Matlock on 25 April 2017 at 3:33pm
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 25 April 2017 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

Floppies? Pamfs?

If only there were a word for a thin monthly periodical bound by a paper
cover full of stories and illustrations...


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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 25 April 2017 at 4:05pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Anyway, if you really need a term besides comics or comic books, doesn't
"monthly" or "monthlies"…



Say no more.
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 25 April 2017 at 4:25pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Funny how Stan was able to use hyperbolic cover blurbs like "The Greatest Comic Magazine in The World!!" and have it be backed up by the actual comic making it more than just hyperbole. Something Marvel is still trying to do with overused phrases like "break the internet in half" except, now it's just plain hyperbole. 
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Brian Skelley
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Posted: 25 April 2017 at 5:48pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

 Shane Matlock wrote:
Does there need to be another one besides comic book? In my mind, it's always been a derogatory way to indicate that graphic novels/ tpb collections are better than the monthly issues (which at the time it started being used it was being pushed that monthly comics were becoming obsolete and graphic novels were going to take over). Anyway, if you really need a term besides comics or comic books, doesn't "monthly" or "monthlies" serve the same purpose as "floppy/floppies"?


When a "comic book" is being published in multiple formats of the exact same thing, sometimes a word is needed to tell what format it is.. is the "comic book" in print form? Is it in digital? With Graphic Novels (which in my mind means those magazine sized one shot stories Marvel used to print in the 80s, possibly 70s) Prestige, or Dark Knight format, Trade, collected, enhanced, or whatever, the word "Comic Book" means a lot of formats. Now that digital and motion comics are a thing, using the word "monthly" doesn't cover all the bases. It really seems to me that adding a word to tell me that it is the format I expect isn't a bad thing.

This is one of those times where I starting to feel that some people are getting grumpy old man syndrome and hating anything that isn't in line with what they've always known and loved. It's a word, and if you aren't in any need of it that's cool... some people are and it's nice a word exists to tell the person exactly what format the "comic book" is in.
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 25 April 2017 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

Like Michael so humorously stated above, that word actually exists. There is already a distinction between comic/comic book, graphic novel, and trade paperback collection. Yes, they are all still comics but there are words that describe what type of comic they are already. When someone says "comic book" they are generally referring to a single issue no matter what the format, digital or print. I guess, yes, some stuff isn't monthly anymore cause some artists are growing roses and some companies are pumping out bi-weekly books, but again, they are still comics no matter what the frequency. Also my most recent ex-girlfriend called her period her monthly so maybe that's not the best alternative either. But I still prefer it to floppy and while I have plenty of cases of grumpy old man syndrome, this is not the case of that so much as a phrase I really think is a terrible description. 

Edited by Shane Matlock on 25 April 2017 at 6:10pm
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