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Brian O'Neill Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 November 2013 Location: United States Posts: 1964
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Posted: 24 May 2017 at 8:58am | IP Logged | 1
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When the IRA bombed Manchester in 1996, nobody died.
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Bill Collins Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Location: England Posts: 11251
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Posted: 24 May 2017 at 9:04am | IP Logged | 2
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Not defending the IRA,but they often gave warnings.This is a whole different type of scumbag.
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 12857
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Posted: 24 May 2017 at 9:17am | IP Logged | 3
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The IRA at least had a fathomable agenda, the reunification of Ireland. ISIS seeks to conquer the entire world, as commanded by Allah. In other words, there is no political solution for these fanatics. Either they all die off, or we do.
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Marcio Ferreira Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2008 Location: Brazil Posts: 2518
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Posted: 24 May 2017 at 10:17am | IP Logged | 4
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#religionofpeace ...
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J W Campbell Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 June 2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 353
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Posted: 24 May 2017 at 11:48am | IP Logged | 5
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Joe Zhang wrote:
In other words, there is no political solution for these fanatics. Either they all die off, or we do. |
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Yes, but ISIS≠Muslims in the same way that the IRA≠Catholics. You deal with them the same way: you engage with the most moderate elements of the wider community of which they are a tiny subset, and then you expand that engagement until the guys you CAN'T reason with are isolated from that wider community, and then you implement a political solution that the vast majority on both sides can live with.
As imperfect as the peace in Northern Ireland is*, every year that passes sees more people growing up in a better place than what went before and distances the community still further from the extremists.
*Notwithstanding Brexit torpedoing the Good Friday Agreement, but that's a whole Other Thing.
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Steve De Young Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 April 2008 Location: United States Posts: 3488
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Posted: 24 May 2017 at 11:58am | IP Logged | 6
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Right, but Northern Ireland wanted to be free. One can negotiate greater freedom and self-determination for a group of people.
How do you negotiate with a group that wants to subjugate the rest of the world and kill all the Jews, Christians, and gays?
Likewise, the Roman Catholic church, and most Roman Catholics around the world, did not even tacitly support the actions of the IRA. In Muslim communities outside the West, while they disagree with Isis' methods and means, their goals and outlook on the West is fundamentally the same.
Put another way, the average Muslim, it is true, will not kill someone for making fun of Muhammad. But if someone is killed for making fun of Muhammad, they'll say that he got what he deserved.
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Leigh DJ Hunt Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 February 2008 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1570
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Posted: 24 May 2017 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | 7
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I must also express my admiration for Iron Maiden,who have announced that the final dates of their U.K. tour WILL go ahead in defiance.-------------------------------------- Hardly alone in that Bill. Most bands are still playing forthcoming gigs in Manchester unlike Iron Maiden. The fact that Take That (!) pulled out of a gig is an exception presumably because they were playing the same venue.
Edited by Leigh DJ Hunt on 24 May 2017 at 12:21pm
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Leigh DJ Hunt Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 February 2008 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1570
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Posted: 24 May 2017 at 12:17pm | IP Logged | 8
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Right, but Northern Ireland wanted to be free. ------------------------------------------------------- A proportion may have wanted that but the majority didn't and still don't as far as democracy has shown so far. ==========================
Put another way, the average Muslim, it is true, will not kill someone for making fun of Muhammad. But if someone is killed for making fun of Muhammad, they'll say that he got what he deserved. ------------------------------------------------------------ --- What is an average Muslim? Or an average Christian or atheist come to that? What sort of scientific sample have you got Steve to state this as fact?
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Andrew Saxon Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2016 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 337
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Posted: 24 May 2017 at 12:37pm | IP Logged | 9
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"As predicted...the usual platitudes."
I think there are times when we have need of the usual platitudes. If they bring comfort in the awful aftermath then bring 'em on. Speaking personally, I feel stunned every time I turn on the TV news and see the scenes from Manchester. My utmost sympathy goes out to the poor victims and their families. My utmost respect to the emergency services and all the civillians too, who have pitched in to help.
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Bill Collins Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Location: England Posts: 11251
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Posted: 24 May 2017 at 12:47pm | IP Logged | 10
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Iron Maiden already played Manchester a couple of weeks ago,they were just the first band I read that vowed to carry on with their tour regardless, Simple Minds I read about today.
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Marcio Ferreira Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2008 Location: Brazil Posts: 2518
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Posted: 24 May 2017 at 1:15pm | IP Logged | 11
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Agreed Andrew Saxon, your point is valid.
But unless the entire western world unite and require action from Muslim leaders, we will keep having those, and that, is not acceptable.
You may even hate Trump, but I watched his entire speech in Saudi Arabia and it was the strongest response that I've seen from a western leader in decades. He spoke with all the world, we must fight evil together and I honestly feel that reform is the only way possible.
Christians were barbarians 500 years ago, we must pressure the Muslim world to make it happen for them as well.
It is simply not acceptable that an average 20% of the so called moderate Muslims living in Europe consider suicide bombings justifiable. These views cannot be tolerated, cannot be forgiven.
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J W Campbell Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 June 2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 353
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Posted: 24 May 2017 at 1:17pm | IP Logged | 12
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Steve de Young wrote:
Put another way, the average Muslim, it is true, will not kill someone for making fun of Muhammad. But if someone is killed for making fun of Muhammad, they'll say that he got what he deserved. |
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You must know some very different Muslims from the ones I've known.
There is a spectrum across a very large population. Some of the most brutal repression of LGBT people is done under the banner of Christianity. That doesn't diminish the same injustices under Muslim regimes, but we don't rush to tar all Christians with the same brush because of some of the horrors visited on the LGBT community in, say, parts of Africa in the name of their God.
As I observed before: nutters are nutters. We need to guard against them, but you're still far more likely to be murdered by your spouse, knocked down by a bus or possibly impaled by an icicle of frozen urine falling from a passing plane than to be killed in a terrorist incident.
Getting out of bed in the morning is an action that courts death, and terrorism is among the least likely causes of that. We defeat terrorism by refusing to be terrorised. Never leaving your house or empowering borderline fascist state repression in your own name seem, to me, to be sub-optimal solutions to a fate you are less likely to suffer than being kicked to death by a donkey.
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