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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 19 July 2017 at 4:03am | IP Logged | 1
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Thus the problem with quantifying the "degree" of super strength. Does that include who can beat up whom?
Incidentally, I believe the ten tons level of spider-strength was cited by Dr. Doom during the "Acts of Vengeance" series when Doom was trying to convince Titania to go fight Spider-Man. She was terrified of Spider-Man, and Doom told her that he could only lift 10 tons, while she could lift 35 tons.
And it's SO subjective. For my money, NO ONE takes the Thing easily... but that's only MY opinion. And my real opinion is that Ben beats Thor, the Hulk, or Colossus... in Fantastic Four. In Thor, the God of Thunder takes all comers. In X-Men, Colossus or Rogue come out on top. In Sub-Mariner... well, I guess you get the idea.
So how strong is Spider-Man? Tell you what. You quantify it from Spider-Man #33, and then we'll talk.
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Trevor Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 3520
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| Posted: 19 July 2017 at 5:03am | IP Logged | 2
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"And my real opinion is that Ben beats Thor... in
Fantastic Four."
**
I could accept that for *almost* any character. But
Thor is a literal freaking GOD - son of Odin at that.
No way Ben beats Thor in any book!
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Robbie Parry
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Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 19 July 2017 at 5:36am | IP Logged | 3
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I think the reality is that Destroyer or Juggernaut beats ALL of them. And if Destroyer takes on Juggernaut, the likes of Hulk and Thing would want to step aside and have no part of it...
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 19 July 2017 at 5:57am | IP Logged | 4
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Surfer, Colossus and She-Hulk have no business in that image.•• My old buddy Mark, again. Desperate to quantify everything, whether it makes any sense or not!
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 19 July 2017 at 6:00am | IP Logged | 5
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I never liked the quantifying of things. I mean, that may sound contradictory given the topic, but this is sort of a "having fun in the playground" sort of topic. As a kid, I was always asking if Abomination was stronger than Juggernaut, etc.
I didn't like how OHOTMU quantified certain things.
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Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17671
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| Posted: 19 July 2017 at 6:05am | IP Logged | 6
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As much as I like Ben Grimm, he should lose to the Hulk and Thor. I think the
Sub-Mariner should be able to beat him as well. Namor is truly underrated in
terms of power.
Ben never goes down without giving a good accounting of himself though…
Well, except that one time against Gladiator… Speaking of whom… Where does
he rank on this scale? I put him up at the top with the Hulk and Thor.
Thor should be able to beat everyone shown (with the exception of the Silver
Surfer), but not because of strength alone. That blasted magic hammer gives
him the edge.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 19 July 2017 at 6:13am | IP Logged | 7
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Thor should be able to beat everyone shown (with the exception of the Silver Surfer), but not because of strength alone. That blasted magic hammer gives him the edge.
***
As has been said previously, it's not about strength, eh?
I mean, Hulk might be stronger than Darkseid, but I wouldn't have faith in him surviving the Omega Beams.
Some of the strongest superheroes/supervillains are dangerous when it comes to strength, but an opponent's eye beams, magic or cosmic powers can change the odds immensely.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 19 July 2017 at 6:44am | IP Logged | 8
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I never liked the quantifying of things. I mean, that may sound contradictory given the topic, but this is sort of a "having fun in the playground" sort of topic. As a kid, I was always asking if Abomination was stronger than Juggernaut, etc.I didn't like how OHOTMU quantified certain things. •• Part of that can be seen as spinning out of Shooter's dislike of what he called the "Marvel adrenaline surge". That's where the Hero finds the strength to accomplish something normally beyond his power level. (Remember Spider-Man trapped under that big machine as the room flooded?) By quantifying everything, it was made harder and harder for we writers to find ways to make that happen. If "it says right here" that a character can lift "only" ten tons, then readers will complain if s/he lifts 11.
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Michael Penn
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Joined: 12 April 2006
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| Posted: 19 July 2017 at 6:46am | IP Logged | 9
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Nobody that I've ever read has depicted as well superheroes matching up against each other than Stan Lee (usually but not exclusively with Jack Kirby). Stan & Co. fundamentally grasped that these battles should be fun, first and foremost, while also somewhat ambiguous even where outcomes are decisive or hinting at decisive -- because nobody wants to see their favorite go down too easily, if at all.
So, when Iron Man fought the Submariner, it was a great match up because the storytelling would exploit in the best ways the strengths and weaknesses of each character, for example, Iron Man needing to power up and Stark's heart condition, while Namor being out of water too long.
Or when Thor took on the Hulk, Kirby-Lee smartly put away Mjolnir while temporarily halting the Don Blake-spell, and what we got was Thor and the Hulk pretty fairly evenly matched, but with just a godly hint that as long as Thor never let up, he'd probably win, but the Hulk continually surprising Thor with his resilience and, even more, speed. (That's something that Lee-Kirby brought up a lot, how shockingly quick the Hulk's movements could be.)
Or when the Thing took on the Hulk, while clearly the Hulk defeated the Thing, it wasn't easy by any reckoning, Ben wasn't immediately dispatched, and even after being defeated, he got right back into the fight with the clear understanding bestowed upon the reader that, boys and girls, Ben is completely ready for a re-match!
These stories may all have started out with a "who's stronger?" premise but ultimately end up with a "who cares?!" because they were so much fun.
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Gundars Berzins
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| Posted: 19 July 2017 at 7:11am | IP Logged | 10
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I do remember that 80's page Charles and thought it was pretty cool. Bought the books. Though I did scratch my head with a few of the listings. As kids it did initiate talks about the listings. Intentional..? Fun times then.
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Peter Martin
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Joined: 17 March 2008
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| Posted: 19 July 2017 at 7:47am | IP Logged | 11
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OHOTMU (or at least the deluxe version) did not quanitfy whether Abomination, Hercules, Thor or Juggernaut were stronger than each other. These characters were all designated as "Class 100", meaning they were able to press more than 100 tonnes, but it did not go all the way to describing who had the greater strength. They were just in the top tier. And for Iron Man, it gave a really opaque description of his strength.
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Peter Martin
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| Posted: 19 July 2017 at 7:59am | IP Logged | 12
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Sasquatch seems to be totally undervalued in those pages of strength groups. In his first appearance, let us not forget that he lifts a plane... and then chucks it "with horrifying ease". In the vein of quantifying things, the text points out it weighs 250 tons.
It may have been youthful exuberance on the part of the artist responsible (whatever happened to that young go-getter?), but to my mind, this puts Sasquatch right at the top of the tree in terms of strength at Marvel. |
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