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Adam Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 July 2017
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| Posted: 28 November 2017 at 9:56am | IP Logged | 1
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Given the trip thru the meat grinder that subsequently beset the characters, I really don't see how Moore's version could have served them any worse.
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JB -- did you read Denny O'Neil's QUESTION series? Clearly O'Neil killed (almost literally) Ditko's Question and replaced him with an all-new, all-different Vic Sage, but it didn't read like "meat grinding" to me. If you read the series I'm curious what you thought of it.
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Adam Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 July 2017
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| Posted: 30 November 2017 at 1:56pm | IP Logged | 2
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("Bumping" this question -- no pun intended -- because I suspect JB didn't see it.)
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Brian O'Neill
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| Posted: 30 November 2017 at 4:10pm | IP Logged | 3
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All that crap done to Hawkman, simply because both Golden and Silver Age versions having the name 'Carter Hall' made some tiny brains explode?Could the whole thing have been avoided if the Thangarian one had a name that was the planet's equivalent of 'Bob Johnson'?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 30 November 2017 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | 4
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JB -- did you read Denny O'Neil's QUESTION series? Clearly O'Neil killed (almost literally) Ditko's Question and replaced him with an all-new, all-different Vic Sage, but it didn't read like "meat grinding" to me. If you read the series I'm curious what you thought of it. ••• I am a great admirer of Denny's work, but what he did with the Question was the very definition of putting a character thru the meat grinder. Denny would probably be among the first to say so. He comes from a very different place, philosophically, than Ditko, and he chose to take the character into his world, rather than taking himself into Ditko's. Probably the only way he could have done the character at all. Was it successful? I think not. YMMV.
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Dave Phelps
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 01 December 2017 at 6:23am | IP Logged | 5
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Brian O'Neill wrote:
| All that crap done to Hawkman, simply because both Golden and Silver Age versions having the name 'Carter Hall' made some tiny brains explode? |
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That had nothing to do with it.
It's because Hawkworld was released in 1989 instead of 1987.
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Adam Schulman
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Joined: 22 July 2017
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| Posted: 01 December 2017 at 12:02pm | IP Logged | 6
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It's because Hawkworld was released in 1989 instead of 1987.
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It wasn't even that. It was because Mike Gold (I think) said "Nah, let's not make this the new backstory of the Katar and Shayera that are currently appearing in our comics, let's forget that Katar and Shayera are currently appearing and pretend that the Thanagarian Hawks are totally new characters."
Which wasn't Tim Truman's intent.
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
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Robert Bradley
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Joined: 20 September 2006
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| Posted: 01 December 2017 at 12:19pm | IP Logged | 7
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How to fix Marvel -
Just give us one version of each character -
Tony Stark as Iron Man Thor as Thor (duh.) Clint Barton as Hawkeye Steve Rogers as Captain America Janet Van Dyne as the Wasp Bruce Banner as Hulk Peter Parker as Spider-Man Logan as Wolverine
And bring back the Fantastic Four. And Ghost Rider ride a motorcycle, he doesn't drive a car.
If you want diversity, that's terrific, use new characters then. Or use the ones you've got - Carol Danvers, Black Panther, Luke Cage, Shang-Chi, the Falcon, Blade, the Black Widow, She-Hulk, the X-Men.
Write good stories. Make them accessible. Make most of them all-ages. Get them out on time. Keep them affordable. Make them fun.
It's not rocket science.
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Rodrigo castellanos
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 1464
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| Posted: 01 December 2017 at 1:06pm | IP Logged | 8
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What O'Neill did with The Question is regrettable, in my opinion.
"Flipping" a character like that to align him with your own ideology is like giving up. He refused to take the character's point of view and the author's intent seriously and investigating what could make that character tick, it's a lost opportunity and kind of a cheat. The stories themselves were mostly good tho, IMHO.
Moore took a different approach with his Question "parody" (can't think of a better word), Rorschach. Moore being also ideologically opposed to the original character's views, he conveys that you have to be mentally troubled to think like that. It's offensive as well, but at least he "did the work" and really dug deep into that mindset.
I feel The Question character is less "betrayed" by this version, altho Ditko would hate both of them, I suppose.
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Brian O'Neill
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| Posted: 01 December 2017 at 3:35pm | IP Logged | 9
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I think Ditko hates most things.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 01 December 2017 at 6:35pm | IP Logged | 10
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I think Ditko hates most things.••• An incredibly shallow reading of the man.
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Brian O'Neill
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| Posted: 01 December 2017 at 6:40pm | IP Logged | 11
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Sorry. I had a pissing contest today in a Facebook group with someone who assumed that because I expressed a negative opinion of one page of his 80s Marvel work, that I must have thought he was the worst artist who ever lived.
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Dave Phelps
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 01 December 2017 at 7:41pm | IP Logged | 12
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Adam Schulman wrote:
It wasn't even that. It was because Mike Gold (I think) said "Nah, let's not make this the new backstory of the Katar and Shayera that are currently appearing in our comics, let's forget that Katar and Shayera are currently appearing and pretend that the Thanagarian Hawks are totally new characters."
Which wasn't Tim Truman's intent. |
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True (other than me not knowing if it was Mike Gold, Dick Giordano or someone else who called for pulling that particular trigger), but that wouldn't have been a problem in 1987. :-)
(Actually I should have said 1986 since that was the year the Tony Isabella ongoing came out.)
The reason Hawkman gets dinged as the "confusing one" is that he got a reboot after he'd already had a sorta kinda revamp. If Hawkworld had been the first post-Crisis series, you'd have gotten similar grumblings as from the folks upset that Wonder Woman wasn't a founding member of the JLA anymore, but he wouldn't have become the poster child for "confusing continuity."
All that said, I think the larger problem is that Hawkman doesn't seem to be a particularly popular character. I'm fond of most of the incarnations I've come across, but he's never been all that commercially successful. In the Golden Age he got to alternate covers of Flash Comics with the Flash and was in the sweet spot of being popular enough for All-Star Comics but not so popular that he got promoted out of it, but that was about it. In the Silver Age, it took two try outs and a brief back-up stint in Mystery in Space before he got his book, which only lasted 27 issues before it got combined with the Atom's book. After spending some time in back-up feature land, Tony Isabella did a well received mini that led to a special and an ongoing lasting 17 issues. Hawkworld did 32 issues which led right into a new Hawkman series that lasted 33 issues. Then 49 issues of the new/old version, then (later) the New 52 version.
The more a character is revived, the greater the struggle between trying to find an angle that will keep history from repeating itself while also being true to the concepts that created the desire for a revival in the first place (and the pull of nostalgia). It's not easy.
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