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Topic: So, We Can’t Get Any Dumber? Post Reply | Post New Topic
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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132316
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 3:08pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

A religion that is based on vampire ritualism -- leader rises from the dead and compels his followers to drink his blood -- should hardly be twitchy about accepting blood transfusions.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 3:42pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

With respect, Sergio, I don't know how wise it would be to continue it. There comes a time when two people have to agree to disagree.

You have your faith. That's fine. But I know and am 100% convinced that those passages would NOT have been referring to a practice that didn't exist. Christians ignore everything else (OT and NT!), but JWs have fixated on the blood issue. I have read much history, I know about historical context, and I disagree.

Like I said, Christianity disapproves of suicide, yet I think it's suicidal to refuse a life-saving blood transfusion. No JW I have ever spoken to (and they proselytise frequently on doorsteps!) has ever been able to counter that point.

Those passages would NOT have been referring to blood transfusions. And ignoring a physician's instructions to save your life is deciding that you will die. Yet Christians are forever telling me that only God can decide when you die.

Sergio, this is the problem I have with religion as opposed to science. There's never a willingness to re-examine anything. What is stated, even when misinterpreted, is eternal. No amount of evidence - and I could provide even more passages - will change the mind of a religious person. I have nothing against a religious person on a personal level, but I have NEVER known one change their mind on anything; and I have NEVER known one ever say, sincerely, "You may have a point, let me go off and think about this." Religion is dependent on people NOT doing that.

Also, you may want to look up the year in which JWs started refusing blood. It wasn't that long ago in historical terms. 

And receiving a blood transfusion is not the same as digesting blood. Those blood "rules " are specific to a period of time, e.g. commands given to Noah about pouring blood out of animals. There is NO WAY they would apply to modern blood transfusions.

On a final note, and one could post all day about this, do JW women breastfeed? A woman transfuses white blood cells when doing that (I read about that in a Nature journal once). So if JWs are to be consistent with their "no blood" policy, then JW women should refrain from breastfeeding, too.

Where does one draw the line?
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Sergio Saavedra
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 13 August 2007
Location: Spain
Posts: 452
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 4:21pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Since you ask me,milk leukocytes are different to blood leukocytes. As a matter of fact, they can't be used in therapies, nobody could receive a transfusion of milk leukocytes in their bloodstream. But above all, the Bible ban is about blood and not milk.
It should be noted, I don't think JWs necessarily focus on blood transfusions. I mean, we also literally do not eat  blood. Blood sausages are very popular in Spain, yet I don't eat that. But while eating blood remains easy to avoid in modern society, the difficulty has arisen in the medical use of blood. That is why it seems to others that we focus on transfusions.

Anyway, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. :-)
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 4:34pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

All I will say, Sergio, is that the JWs rules on blood came about only several decades ago. Your organisation was founded in the 19th century. It is odd that the ban on blood came about many, many years after that. 
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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132316
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 9:01pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

...anthropomorphizes the Almighty...

•••

As opposed to the Bible, which paints us a portrait of God as cruel, vengeful, misogynistic, jealous, petty, bloodthirsty, homophobic and sadistic.

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Dale Lerette
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 24 March 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 750
Posted: 12 February 2018 at 1:06am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

John Byrne: As opposed to the Bible, which paints us a portrait of God as cruel, vengeful, misogynistic, jealous, petty, bloodthirsty, homophobic and sadistic.
________________________________

That is a fairly accurate summary of my point. Without actually disparaging the Scriptures, I still have to admit it is ultimately still expressed through a variety of human languages, errors included.

What do you think of Einstein's thoughts on God?

To my knowledge Einstein never believed in a personal deity. He was more of a pantheist in the spirit of Spinoza. Yet I have to admit that I have personally found many of Albert's writings to be very inspiring, and even comforting at times.
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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132316
Posted: 12 February 2018 at 4:43am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Many scientists have an unfortunate habit of using God as a metaphor. Einstein was no exception. Result, people who don't know any beterr will insist "Einstein believed in God."
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
Posted: 13 February 2018 at 4:57am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

It's not quite the same, but there have been a small number of occasions where I've been asked why I'm celebrating Christmas or saying, "Oh, my God!"

Things enter the vernacular. I bet many atheists have said, "Oh, my god!"

As for Xmas, I confess, I love the time off, I love the wine, I love the food, etc. It does not make me a believer.

But yet, perhaps facetiously, some will use that against me when they find out I'm an atheist. 

I was also once asked why I capitalise God. Someone told me I should type "god" rather than God. I capitalise God so as to make it clear I'm discussing the Judeo-Christian God in a debate. It doesn't make me a believer.

I suspect scientists who use God as a metaphor receive similar criticisms.
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
Posted: 13 February 2018 at 9:17am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

"If you don't believe in God, why...

...do you celebrate Christmas?"
Well, everyone else is doing it. It's kind of hard to avoid. But I do eat Chinese food and go to movies... so I don't celebrate it. I endure it.

...do you say 'God bless you' after someone sneezes?"
I was taught that it was polite and good manners, and fifty years of a habit is hard to shake off. Would you prefer "Gesundheit"? Or "To your health"? Or just say nothing and seem rude?

...do you capitalize God?"
Robbie handled that one perfectly. I also capitalize Thor, Ra, and Ares, but I don't refer to them as Gods. Just gods.

...do you do this, that, or the other thing?"
Hey, you know what? My beliefs are none of your God damned business. Am I hurting you? Am I keeping you from believing what YOU want? Then go find some other cause to support. I'm doing fine and I don't need to be persecuted by you. Shoo. Shoo, shoo, shoo.
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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132316
Posted: 13 February 2018 at 9:21am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

I'm resigned to Xmas a a secular holiday. I have a tiny tree I put in the middle of my dining room table, on a red runner, and surround with the cards that come to Byrne Central.

Also I have a black and silver Halloween wreath that I hang on the front door at Yuletide.

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Dale Lerette
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 24 March 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 750
Posted: 13 February 2018 at 10:03am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Keep in mind that for some who go to Church, that Sunday may as well be a secular holiday, too. There has been a large abandonment of faith over these last several decades. And sometimes they are going through the motions but do not actually believe in the event they are participating in. Some do not even really understand why they are there.

Edited by Dale Lerette on 13 February 2018 at 10:07am
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
Posted: 13 February 2018 at 10:04am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I, too, have a tree each Xmas. I am aware of the origins of the tree, I am aware of what it represents, but, forgive me, in a way it's just a "tool" to hang chocolates from. Or to get into the spirit of things.

And it's the same with Easter. I just want a chocolate egg.
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