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Brian Hague
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Posted: 12 February 2018 at 7:23pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Eric, I was a big fan of the Batman/ Superboy story as well. Did you ever read issue #215 of the Green Lantern Corps? Grumpy alien GL Salakk visits the year 5711 A.D. and the results are... weird. Jus' sayin' is all...

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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 12 February 2018 at 8:16pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

That issue of GLC was....interesting. But if I remember right, doesn't either Salakk, the girl, or both of them believe he's someone else for some reason?

(Or am I thinking of a different story from the same series that involved Hal?)
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Jack Bohn
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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 8:05am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I remember a Superboy comic (I don't know if that was its title; we would have called it SUPERBOY) where he was called by an archeologist friend to explain some ancient carvings they found. Fortunately, now that I think about it, Superboy had already had that adventure, where he traveled back in time, and, in helping someone, made his powers known and become the sun-god-king with his likeness carved into their temples.

My favorite at the moment is the Iron Man issues where he and Doctor Doom traveled back to the time of Morgan le Fey. Baron von Doom was better suited mentally to deal with that time.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 6:10pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Brian, you're right. Iona Vane saw Salakk as her lover Solar Director Pol Manning in that story. Usually, Hal Jordan was cast in that role when he traveled to her time, but for whatever reason, Salakk was the one to fill it here.

Jack, I haven't read the issue you mention, but could it have been Superboy #166?


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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 11:22pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Why specify Marvel and DC characters? Does Donald Duck In Ancient Persia not count?That was probably my favorite of all the adventure comics I had as a kid. I re-read that over and over, it was such a great piece of fantasy having the ancients all turn to dust on contact with the world outside their mausoleum! I imagine today someone would say it might traumatize a child (while they allow violent computer animated stuff that at worst gives off an aura of inhumanity), but that was a huge spark for me. Donald Duck In Old California was another, capital W O W stuff... in my opinion as cosmic as Jim Starlin, and maybe even Steve Gerber.

I remember The Avengers (from 40cent mostly John Buscema reprints) where they went back in time to try to save Bucky or something like that, but then when they got back, the present was all different! People in the streets of Manhattan were staring at them with fear and puzzlement. That was a major-league fascinating set-up, but unfortunately they kind of copped-out on exploring it any further than one annual where it seemed everything had to be set back where it all had been for the next regular issue. Later (or earlier if you followed the reprints and then they never got to these) there was Hawkeye visiting The Two-Gun Kid and all those other retired western comics dudes. There was even a stand-alone story with them in one of the Spider-Man reprints of all places. Thor and Moondragon joined Hawkeye, wore old-west clothes, and rode on a steam train; now there's entertainment! Hey, at least nobody turned into a gorilla. It's not like they knew back then there would be college courses in, and thesis on, Marvel 'mythology'.


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 13 February 2018 at 11:23pm
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 11:52pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Rebecca, believe me, I'm no fan of the oft-heard sound of jackboots in these parts or the work of those who feel it their duty to police these threads for any infringements upon or violations of the stated rules. If you wish to sing the praises of the Barks Ducks here, you are certainly welcome to do so as far as I'm concerned.

But I must ask, as an old-school DC fan from way back when, exactly what is so wrong with characters turning into gorillas? Spider-Man knows people who turn into lizards, man-wolves, and piles of sand. Thor himself has turned into a frog. Arthur Nagan, Ken Hale, and Franz Radzik, all Marvel comics scientists, have turned into... Yes, Gorillas! Turning into a gorilla is, I believe, a proud comic book tradition.

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Jack Bohn
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 12:16am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Brian, that's it! I remembered some details from the end of the story, but forgot that there would have been a body! I probably saw it some years after its 1970 publication.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 9:34am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Matthew W. - Or, it might have been in Defenders #26, when Vance Astrovik encounters Vance Astro for the first time.

Brian H. - I didn't collect Green Lantern Corps, so I missed that issue, although I seemed to recall hearing the Salakk took over the Pol Manning identity. ITEM: I think that cover is for shock value alone. ITEM: They had to put another Green Lantern into that role? Somebody ran out of ideas. Sad.

And I see nothing wrong with characters turning into gorillas, babies, giant headed characters, puppets, half-bodies, or whatever you like. Back in the 60s, Julie Schwartz found that - for whatever reason - gorillas on covers of super hero comics sold better. Thus, entrez les gorilles!

"... the oft-heard sound of jackboots in these parts..." Wow. I must be deaf to such. Discussion, sure; repression, no. And that metaphor is very disturbing to me... the effect you wanted, I guess.


Rebecca - I suspect it's just that the DC or Marvel characters were simply the ones identified so far. No prejudice against Disney, or anyone else. For example, Fawcett's Marvel Family #10, "The Marvel Family versus the Sivana Family" was a fantastic time travel story, and one of the best Marvel Family stories.

And the first story you're referring to Avengers #56 ("Death Be Not Proud!")  and Avengers Annual #2 ("And Time, The Rushing River"), where the current Avengers (Giant-Man, Wasp, Hawkeye, Black Panther, and Captain America dropping in for a visit) went back in the past to try to save Bucky or at least find out what happened to him, and the Scarlet Centurion caused them to appear for real in that time... messing up the time stream so that he could change the "present" to one where he controlled the original Avengers, and take over. Good times... well written, great art, and the time paradox was NEVER undone until Marvel started changing their own story.

Oh, and welcome to the board! Your day to walk Lockjaw is Tuesdays. Bring LOTS of plastic bags! :)
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Thanks, I think... I have a little experience in walking powerful dogs. I learned to make it my will sometimes to just go where they really want to go!

"Turning into a gorilla is, I believe, a proud comic book tradition."

Well, I read an old 'Congorilla' story and at least liked it. I was always more of a sucker for the wolf and cat people myself (I think I have all the Man-Wolf and many of the Tigra comics).

I used to love the Shazam! reprint comics in the early '70s. I still vaguely remember one where a ball of string leads Captain Marvel back through some time portal... looking it up it originally appeared in #55 of his 1940s comic. I'm sure I'd have loved Marvel Family #10.
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Matthew Wilkie
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Matthew, might that Vance Astro confrontation have been in MTIO #69?

***

Thanks for posting that, Brian, but I'm not sure it is the scene |I was thinking of. In the back on my memory, I can see Vance out of  costume and the exchange being far more brief, but I may be misremembering. 
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Matthew Wilkie
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 2:58pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

So, yes, Ben Raab's "Truth or Death" is a bit like what Bendis does. It's also a bit like what Claremont did with the New Mutants back when he had the team meet older, evil, corrupted punk rock versions of themselves via Illyana's stepping circles. Claremont sometimes had teams of X-Men and mutants meeting their alternate selves or corrupted copies of themselves at different places in their timelines such as in Magik and the Exiles.

***

The difference with what Claremont did is that, as you say, these were alternative versions of characters that only existed in that story (or from that story onwards) and that is not a new device. Truth or Death - thanks for the correction to the title - and the Bendis tales with the original X-Men meeting the current team are different in that these are time travel tales which feature characters from two different times in Marvel's publishing history.

This of course is problematic if we are to accept that their are only six years, or whatever, between the FF getting their powers and the present day. In the Bendis storyline, the X-Men seem to come from the time that these stories were actually published.




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Brian Hague
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 12:09am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Matthew, re: Vance Astro, check out Defenders #26 as Eric mentioned above. I haven't read it, but it might contain the meeting you're thinking of. The MTIO issue is basically a book-length meeting of the two, but the older Vance does not take off his mask until the very end.

I find time travel in the X-Men to be similar to time travel in Star Trek. Initially, the series had little to do with the subject, but once one of the best stories used it as a central storytelling device (City; DOFP) the perception grew that time travel was intrinsically part of the franchise to the point where DOFP-style stories often dominate Marvel publishing and four of the thirteen Star Trek movies involve time travel of some sort, while two others still involve a character from a previous timeline and the ramifications of that. 

While you're right that both Truth or Death and Bendis's story deal with the teams at "actual" points in their history, making them similar, I still don't find a causal connection leading from one to the other. I don't think Bendis needed the one to come up with the other, and I believe that what he was doing is substantially different in intent, altering the direction and POV of both era's X-Men as they interacted with one another.

And yes, whatever that earlier, more innocent, era was from which the younger team emerged, I agree that it belies current Marvel time compression, however that's described these days. I did think they'd passed the ten year mark at some point. 

Eric, the "jackboots" thing was a humorously-intended hyperbolic description of the vigilance and overreactions other posters hereabouts have whenever the rules and limitations they've imposed  upon their threads are flouted. I was telling Rebecca that I didn't care if the "Marvel and DC" portion of my thread title was ignored by her response.

The only reason it's there at all was to focus the discussion upon stories we remember fondly and avoid the possible tangents into Egyptian hieroglyphs and Outcault's "Yellow Kid" that could be created by a "Comic characters throughout history" thread title.

Also, I don't think the Salakk issue above shows a lack of imagination swapping out one GL for another as Solar Director. I think it was a genuinely light-hearted attempt to revisit that plot thread and put a close to Iona's story and that of the 5711 A.D. era in general. 

That Avengers Annual #2 storyline involving the Scarlet Centurion's intrusion into the earliest days of the Marvel Age was an all-time classic. I read it as a reprint back in my childhood days and enjoyed the stuffings out of it. The follow-up in What If #29 is a fun issue as well with a nifty Michael Golden cover.



Edited by Brian Hague on 15 February 2018 at 12:09am
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Trevor Smith
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 3:49am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Salakk and A Lass? *GROAN*
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 11:38am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Brian H....

ITEM: Referring to the title of this topic... why, of course you were. And if I had a memory longer than that belonging to a goldfish, I'd have remembered the title. And I'm glad that you clarified that historical traverses is open to all publishers.

ITEM: Okay, I get that the jackboots reference was supposed to be humorous... I figured it was an allusion, but I have a little trouble seeing the humorous aspect to it. This one's on me, not you, friend.

ITEM: I never read that GLC book, so it may indeed be light and fun. To me, it smells of lack of creativity... but caveat emptor, as always. ;)

ITEM: I thought very hard of that What If story indeed while I was posting my comments. Michael Golden was always a little hit-or-miss to  me, but this isn't bad (although what's up with Thor's mouth...? :)

But the story didn't roll as well to me. The Hulk was immediately removed from the story and Thor was just shunted off to Asgard, so the resistance to the Scarlet centurion was just Iron Man and Giant-Man and the Wasp. That transforms the dynamic of that story TREMENDOUSLY. Those three are indeed formidable... but put Thor back in the tale, and it goes to a whole different level.

ITEM: That book reminds me of another time displaced character that I thought was quite good... "What If... Conan the Barbarian Walked the Earth Today?" That was a hunk of great story to mine old eyes. I didn't think quite so highly of the sequel, but that book was terrific.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 12:55pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

I haven't thought of that What If #29 in a long time. I completely forget how it went though. I was buying it from the Phoenix issue followed by an Elektra issue. They usually ended where the universe is destroyed however. Q: What if Sgt. Fury had fought WWII in Space? A: The universe would have been destroyed! Q: What if Uncle Ben had lived? A: The universe would have been destroyed (by an overproduction of rice)...
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Matthew Wilkie
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Eric and Brian, thanks for the suggestions on the Vance Astro scene. I'm really muddled and may have to try and find the issue in my loft. I never read the Defenders until # 125 so I'm thinking it must be the MTIO issue, but having googled the cover it's not ringing any bells. Hmmm ...  
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Doug Centers
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 1:48pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Matthew you may be intertwining a scene with his father , in which he pops his mask off for a split second.
Also MTIO #69


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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 8:36pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

I still have the Steve Gerber Guardians comics. I loved how they had a ship named Captain America, and Vance Astro had a room on it that looked like his childhood bedroom with comic books lying around! I have no idea why those people in the movies and animated tv series are calling themselves by this name too, but they are a done well, and anything with a talking angry raccoon is going to be worth seeing anyway.

Remember the great John Byrne comic where the Thing goes back in time and fights his original lumpen self? Marvel Two-In-One #50 circa 1978-79. Project Pegasus and Adam Warlock rising from the grave to meet Starhawk (and Her) followed.
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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 16 February 2018 at 2:55am | IP Logged | 19 post reply

MTIO # 100 (the finale) has a great follow-up to # 50.
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