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Topic: Spider-Man A Horror Character? Post Reply | Post New Topic
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Brian Hague
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Joined: 14 November 2006
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Posted: 27 September 2018 at 12:09am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

The Spider-Man films have likely influenced many of the essays in that book. In at least three of the films that I can think of, Peter is regarded as a prodigy by potential mentors who quickly become villains. In those cases, he is actively battling individuals who could have made his career had things gone differently. In that sense, he does appear to be fighting those who were in position to do him the most good, and could arguably be said to be fighting against his own future. It's a stretch, but it's one born of the film narratives, not the comics.

In the comics, his battles against these foes play out much differently, as his enemies are usually corrupt or embittered when he meets them, either as scientists or subjects of scientific inquiry gone awry. In those cases, it is Peter who is fighting for a brighter future for all of us and rooting out those selfish elements in the scientific community who would serve only their own ends. Even then, one would be straining to make that point, given how little time Peter spends focusing on his work. He's kind of a poster child for failing to get your head in the game and making the hard choices; the ones that cost you your free time and personal autonomy. Time and time again, Peter is reminded that he needs those if he is to continue to do good work as Spider-Man. The hard choices thrust upon him prevent him from committing to the decisions he would need to make if he is to succeed as a scientist. Peter tends to regret other things far more however, and never seems to prioritize his chosen field of study above any of the other considerations in his life. Are his misdirected attentions just one of the perils of youth and a life lived on the edge? Perhaps. But it's difficult to view the Silver or the Bronze Age Spidey as a serious-minded student by any measure. 

I can see where they're coming from with some of these treatise premises, but they're hardly the arguments that strike at the core of the character and what he's all about. 


Edited by Brian Hague on 27 September 2018 at 12:13am
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 27 September 2018 at 12:34am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

It’s been said by some that the story of Spider-Man ends in ASM # 50, where Peter gives up the costume and then reclaims it and reaffirms why he does what he does. It’s sort of a summation of how far the character has come, and what motivates him.

Those first 50 issues show a considerable amount of growth and maturing of the character, and it could be argued that everything which comes after is treading water, with Peter’s occasional temptations to quit being Spider-Man becoming a recurring cycle. 

I do think there’s some validity to this idea. Lee and Ditko (and, to a lesser degree, Lee and Romita) really showed a lot of the ups and downs in Peter’s journey to manhood, and no other Spider-Man run since has been quite as impactful or influential. Lots of variations on established stories and themes, but the actual Hero’s Journey of Spider-Man is pretty neatly encapsulated within those first 50 issues. 

Of course, much of what subsequently occurred came down to Spider-Man becoming an ongoing concern, and Stan therefore putting the brakes on. Treading water, rather than growth and change. But, it could be argued that the most important growth had already occurred. Peter went from scrawny, bespectacled high schooler to confident, handsome college boy within those first four years. He grew up, which is a logical endpoint for the character, Marvel’s monthly publishing needs aside.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 27 September 2018 at 12:43am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

There's a fun episode of "Northern Exposure" in which Chris-In-The-Morning's correspondence course graduate thesis concerning "Casey at the Bat" and how it relates to U.S. policy in dealing with Communism is to be evaluated by a pair of visiting educators. One is a traditionalist with little regard for his premise. After all, "Casey at the Bat" pre-dates Communism and can not have been written with any such intent towards the argument Chris is making. The other fellow is more progressive and edgy, seeing academia as a proving ground for extremes in thinking. He has no time for such hidebound concerns as "authorial intent." Who cares what the author had in mind? He's dead! How does he still get a say in how his work is used by readers today? He gave up that right when he put his words out into the world! Today's readers need to shake things up, he argues; turn old ideas upside-down and inside-out if we're going to keep these old things relevant...

Chris is of course completely on board with the younger fellow's take on things, but over the course of the episode comes to see how his work is dissecting "Casey" to the point that it does in fact become irrelevant because of the inversions and imbalances he's forcing upon it. The poem is not about U.S. foreign policy, and he's doing the work and his own efforts a disservice in twisting it to fit those ends. 

The whole thing culminates in a dream sequence in which he is on the front lines of a war alongside a number of authors, all fighting to preserve the concept that their work has inherent meaning and does not exist to be strip-mined for convenience's sake in making modern arguments or conforming to current fashion. He's shocked when his buddy William Shakespeare is shot down in front of him, gasping, ""Tis a far, far better thing I do..." and says, "Shakes... that's Dickens!" Looking out at the enemy gunning down the most famous, well-spoken men in history, he sees himself on the other side... He's the one raining down havoc upon them.

The argument is an ongoing one, and academia is removed from reality by design some would say simply so that it can go places it otherwise would not if it were more keyed into such prosaic concerns as respect for the work of others  and common courtesy. Myself, I prefer to err on the side of observations being in keeping with intent, but there are many out there who feel the time for such considerations is long past. 


Edited by Brian Hague on 27 September 2018 at 12:46am
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 27 September 2018 at 7:29am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Myself, I prefer to err on the side of observations being in keeping with intent, but there are many out there who feel the time for such considerations is long past. 
++++++++

Yeah, no kidding. Respect is becoming a thing of the past in today’s remix/rehash/exploit pop-entertainment landscape. Cut the face off of the corpse of a beloved property, and glue it to the face of something else entirely so as to provide brand-recognition and a facade of legitimacy. 

While feelings of fan ownership can certainly reach absurd extremes, in a lot of cases, the old guard is often rightly responding to what is a complete betrayal of everything a property once stood for. 

I can pretty much guarantee that if I picked up any modern-day Spider-Man book, I’d find the characters, the themes, and the world both unrecognizable and off-putting. Not even a pretense of being the same characters and world created by Lee and Ditko, but taking place NOW. Whereas prior creators largely still managed to color inside the lines.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 27 September 2018 at 7:46am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

We can probably all see things that aren't there. One could argue (and I really don't believe this!) that the Lizard in Spider-Man represents the hypothesis that David Icke has put forward over the last 25+ years. 

I don't believe that. And it is an extreme example. I'm just saying people can see what they want to see.

Someone (around a decade ago) talked about TNG's Data representing repressed sexualities of all kinds. I really don't see that.

If there are subtexts and social commentary, great. I would much prefer to hear it from the author's mouth, though.
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John Byrne

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Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 27 September 2018 at 7:47am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

it's all part of the singer becoming more important than the song -- and, yes, I have certainly been lifted on that wave myself, from time to time.

When we start talking about "So-and-so's Superman" or "Thus-and-such's X-Men" we've taken a bad turn -- especially when those "creators" start believing their own hype.

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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 27 September 2018 at 11:00am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

A horror Spider-Man would've kept going, grown the extra hairy limbs and multiple eyes and pincers I'd think.With the first attempt at a Spider-Woman they had it so a lot of people picked up bad vibes from her, like people who don't like creepy spiders. There was maybe a hint of that in the earliest Ditko issues I thought but that got phased out and he grew in the other direction not being skinny or needing glasses anymore. I liked how he was relating to the Human Torch, another character of his age but who saw changes a lot more positively, maybe that rubbed off on Peter Parker somewhat too?

I take it Todd McFarlane's thing was to bring the creepy back but I have to admit I never read those, just saw some of the art.

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 27 September 2018 at 12:53pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I'm kind of glad Spider-Man didn't become a horror character because those issues where he spouted extra arms were, well, thank you for the childhood nightmares, Marvel! 
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 27 September 2018 at 1:45pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I suppose he has become a horror character, because I’m horrified by how he’s no longer the character I used to know!
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 27 September 2018 at 1:57pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Very droll, Mr Kirkman! ;-)

I did learn something during the book: apparently, an issue of ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN saw Spider-Man displeased that Hollywood was making a Spider-Man movie.

In a world populated by superheroes, would a studio really make a superhero movie? In a world where you could glimpse Spider-Man daily, and witness his battles, what joy would there be in seeing a Spider-Man movie?
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 27 September 2018 at 2:07pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Remember, Stan and Jack established that, at the very least, there was a FANTASTIC FOUR comic produced in-universe. And the FF starred as themselves in their own movie!

Thinking about it from an in-universe perspective, it seems unlikely that Spider-Man, a guy so often distrusted by both the police and the media, would be the subject of a major motion picture. More likely, he’d be the subject of true-crime TV specials and SyFy Channel documentaries. Also remember that he started out as a media star, and would therefore be the Marvel equivalent of a fallen celebrity-possibly-turned-criminal. The disgraced subject of supermarket tabloid magazines.


I also seem to recall that, some years back, Marvel published a series of comics as if they were the “real” comics published about our heroes, in-universe.


Edited by Greg Kirkman on 27 September 2018 at 2:07pm
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 27 September 2018 at 2:09pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Yes, I think a studio would still make a superhero movie in a world with superheroes.

Two films come to mind that make me think this way.

The Jackie Robinson Story was made in 1950 (Robinson played MLB from 1947 to 1956).

The Greatest was made in 1977 (Muhammad Ali boxed professionally from 1960 to 1981).

Both are examples where you could still watch the real thing in real, live sporting events (and on a scheduled basis, unlike glimpsing Spider-Man) yet still there was some joy for cinemagoers to see staged versions (featuring the actual stars themselves though).

Maybe it's because (lights zippo and waves it): Everybody searching for a hero/ People need someone to look up to
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