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Dave Kopperman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3139
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Posted: 22 October 2018 at 3:27pm | IP Logged | 1
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This is both entirely, cynically political (witness the success in 2004 of riling the base with marriage definition measures in 11 swing states) AND no doubt reflects the actual beliefs of Trump. A shit sandwich from the shitty sandwich maker, regardless of how you slice it. The GOP really only need to get a few thousand more people motivated to vote in key districts to carry these things.
Edited by Dave Kopperman on 23 October 2018 at 7:37am
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14812
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Posted: 22 October 2018 at 3:53pm | IP Logged | 2
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There are also a number of conditions that cause humans to be born with fewer than two legs, that doesn't mean humans aren't bipeds. Tiny biological exceptions don't change the general scientific rule. Additionally, the vast majority of transgender people are not intersexed, so these cases are irrelevant to the understanding of transgender people.
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You were making a general statement about biological sex in nature:
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There are only two biological sexes. I'm not even primarily talking about humans here. I'm talking about animals. And plants. Its how reproduction works. |
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This does not conform with our current understanding of biology.
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Steve De Young Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 April 2008 Location: United States Posts: 3488
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Posted: 22 October 2018 at 4:29pm | IP Logged | 3
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Yes, it absolutely does. No biologist defines humans with Kleinfelter's Syndrome (one of the conditions you're talking about) as a third biological sex. We're not talking about sea cucumbers, here, we're talking about mammals, which have two biological sexes. Again, birth abnormalities do not speak to the general characteristics of biological organisms.
And none of this has anything to do with transgender people, as once again, if you did want to take the bizarre step of designating people with Kleinfelter's Syndrome as a third biological sex, that sex would still be genetically defined. The vast majority of transgender people identify as transgender because their gender identity doesn't match their genetic/biological sex and/or society's constructed gender pertaining to that biology.
I know you understand what I'm saying, so I'll leave it here, since I'm not interested in arguing for internet points.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14812
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Posted: 22 October 2018 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | 4
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QUOTE:
Yes, it absolutely does. No biologist defines humans with Kleinfelter's Syndrome (one of the conditions you're talking about) as a third biological sex. |
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Of course not. What they /do/ say is that biological sex is more complicated than simply fitting in a binary structure.
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We're not talking about sea cucumbers, here, we're talking about mammals, which have two biological sexes. Again, birth abnormalities do not speak to the general characteristics of biological organisms. |
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Sigh. Once again, this is what you wrote:
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There are only two biological sexes. I'm not even primarily talking about humans here. I'm talking about animals. And plants. Its how reproduction works. |
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And none of this has anything to do with transgender people |
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It does matter in how society tries to apply an imperfect, unscientific understanding of biological sex to an imperfect, unscientific understanding of gender identity.
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Thomas Woods Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1356
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Posted: 22 October 2018 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | 5
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This applies to the conversation. "up to 80 percent of Americans are opposed to politically correct thinking in its current manifestations. Latinos and Asian- Americans are among the groups most opposed, and even 61 percent of self-professed liberals do not like political correctness."
https: //www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-10- 18/elizabeth-warren-dna-response-shows-failure-of- liberalism?fbclid=IwAR3uRSmOLxN- dtAvvytvR8YDjiIU6QhHTph00_6cTUYOkwRqlJyRE2dl1Ls
Edited by Thomas Woods on 22 October 2018 at 5:20pm
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Thomas Woods Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1356
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Posted: 22 October 2018 at 5:23pm | IP Logged | 6
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Had to separate into 2 posts because 2 links in one post was giving me trouble
A good video on the study
https://youtu.be/mm1TrY-t0ng
and there is a link to the full study under the video
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Steve De Young Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 April 2008 Location: United States Posts: 3488
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Posted: 22 October 2018 at 5:38pm | IP Logged | 7
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Of course not. What they /do/ say is that biological sex is more complicated than simply fitting in a binary structure. ------------- Okay, I won't assume you understand what I'm saying. So, if there are more than two biological sexes, what are the gonad structures associated with these other sexes and how do they interact with male and female gonad structures in reproduction? What glands do these third and fourth sex humans have that biologically male and female humans don't have?
The tiny minority of birth abnormalities you're alluding to, again, are admixtures of male and female biological structures, usually with one or both elements underdeveloped and non-functional. It is not a third or fourth set of biological structures. The same is true, by the way, of plants and animals, some of which can change between male and female structures or manifest both, but there are still only male and female reproductive structures, there is no third or fourth set.
Biological sex structures are produced by evolution for the purpose of reproduction, and reproduction is a binary thing, involving male and female gonad structures. This is basic biology.
And none of this has anything to do with transgender people, because once again, intersexed people and transgender people are, for the most part, not the same people. And please, spare us all your plaintive sighing.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14812
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Posted: 22 October 2018 at 6:04pm | IP Logged | 8
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QUOTE:
So, if there are more than two biological sexes, what are the gonad structures associated with these other sexes and how do they interact with male and female gonad structures in reproduction? What glands do these third and fourth sex humans have that biologically male and female humans don't have? |
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Taking the binary format and throwing in a third or fourth or fifth entirely misses the point and is a straw man.
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The tiny minority of birth abnormalities you're alluding to, again, are admixtures of male and female biological structures, usually with one or both elements underdeveloped and non-functional. It is not a third or fourth set of biological structures. The same is true, by the way, of plants and animals, some of which can change between male and female structures or manifest both, but there are still only male and female reproductive structures, there is no third or fourth set. |
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Straaaaaaawman.
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Biological sex structures are produced by evolution for the purpose of reproduction, and reproduction is a binary thing, involving male and female gonad structures. This is basic biology. |
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Yes. This is correct. Gonad structures are binary.
Using gonads to define biological sexes, however, results in ambiguity. Using chromosomes to define biological sexes results in ambiguity. Using hormones to define biological sexes results in ambiguity. Using genes to define biological sexes results in ambiguity. Using secondary sexual characteristics to define biological sexes results in ambiguity.
Which is why biologists say that sex is not binary and exists on a spectrum. You act like I'm making all this shit up and it's not the current conversation in the scientific community. Pick up a journal.
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And none of this has anything to do with transgender people |
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Once again, an imperfect, unscientific understanding of biological sex leads to an imperfect, unscientific understanding of gender identity. I mean, it's the foundation of every claim that transgenderism doesn't exist that I've ever seen. "God made only two sexes..."
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Rick Whiting Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004 Posts: 2188
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Posted: 22 October 2018 at 11:40pm | IP Logged | 9
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Except this is false. There are a number of intersex conditions that don't fall neatly in the binary XY male/XX female. Even in the animal kingdom. As well as hermaphroditic plants and animals.
________________________________
I have a question. Is it possible that transgender (and to a lesser extent, homosexuality) a form of intersex?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132297
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Posted: 23 October 2018 at 7:25am | IP Logged | 10
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The bottom line is that there are a lot of people who would like to get rid of all things that make them feel squirmy in their tum-tums--as if that is somehow a valid method of defining right and wrong.Consenting adults! End of story!
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 23 October 2018 at 7:37am | IP Logged | 11
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I seem to recall that Bush II did a lot of judgment from gut feelings too. Seems that some Republicans just don't want to think about issues... well, not with their brains at least.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132297
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Posted: 23 October 2018 at 7:44am | IP Logged | 12
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Twice divorced, allegedly adulterous D. Rump is going to lecture us from the moral high ground.Yup.
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