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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4525
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Posted: 31 January 2021 at 6:49pm | IP Logged | 1
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People have a right to say if they feel offended. There are people who really seem to look for something to be offended about, and even worse, be offended on behalf of someone else theoretically. I draw a hard line at serious violent rhetoric, that usually isn't any kind of joke. Almost everyone needs some slack, and a play on words is a long way from demonizing some group to me.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14812
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Posted: 31 January 2021 at 7:58pm | IP Logged | 2
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Almost everyone needs some slack, and a play on words is a long way from demonizing some group to me.
----
Good thing no one was suggesting that was the case.
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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7622
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Posted: 01 February 2021 at 3:24am | IP Logged | 3
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I have long thought about whether I would be sexist or racist had I been born in a different time - one where both attitudes prevailed.
The reason this worries me is that I know that as a kid I used racist language without understanding its meaning - therefore the potential is there, in me, to be that kind of person.
It is a matter of education on my part.
Before I understood these things, I called kids in my junior school Pakki, I used the phrase 'cheating Arab', 'Jew nose' and a whole host of other things I did not understand.
I had no idea the effect these words had on the people I used them on or the people who heard them.
I used to applaud teachers who would scold kids when they were together in the playground speaking their own language. I now understand the pros and cons of that situation (or at the least, some of them).
We learn, we grow, we change.
I would not dream of using those offenses now, but I have to acknowledge the potential was in me, because I used them.
Neil is right in so far as China went too far in what it did, and the examples he gives are horrendous. And yes, the no platforming and cancel culture at times can stray dangerously close to heading in that direction.
BUT, that should not take away from having the right to challenge what someone says, especially if it hurts people, is used to gain advantage or demean someone, is said from a place of ignorance (like when I was a kid).
And there are some things that maybe people should be attacked for, such as denying the holocaust, denying and attacking the parents of a school shooting, spreading false information about a pandemic (especially when those false claims are tied to an individual such as Bill Gates or plugging a drug that has no connection to treatment or asking people to disinfect their insides).
So, as already mentioned, context is important. But so is learning and humility. Having the ability to say 'Yes, that was not right, I apologise' and move on.
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Neil Lindholm Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005 Location: China Posts: 4940
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Posted: 01 February 2021 at 5:18am | IP Logged | 4
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James said it perfectly. There is a huge difference between saying something designed to hurt someone and saying something that is in fun or in jest. We have a black man from Florida where I work (and yes, he gets ribbed about being a Florida man all the time. How insensitive we are) and he told me that he does not get offended at all if someone uses the "n-word" around him, as it depends on the context. Same for my Jewish friend. He loves and collect jew jokes and finds them hilarious. Telling him one with the plan to insult or hurt him and it will be a completely different outcome. Context.
James' examples are exactly the kinds of comments people should be attacked for, as these are designed to hurt and belittle. Going after someone for a joke or a pun or a phrase that obviously in no way was intended to insult anyone is just wrong.
The only thing I would slightly disagree with is saying "Yes, that was not right. I apologize". If there was no intention to belittle or attack, a better answer is "I am sorry you are offended and misconstrued my comments." and leave it at that. Never apologize for something you did not do.
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 01 February 2021 at 8:56am | IP Logged | 5
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ITEM: NO ONE loves jewish jokes more than Jews. I promise you.
ITEM: There's insult and unintentional insult. I can think of (and way back when, even used) dozens of intentionally offensive jokes. But in a context where they weren't offensive, e.g., in the back of choir room in high school, waiting to be tested. As an actor, I know one must play to one's audience; but as an actor, I speak every line as someone else wrote it, to have a specific effect.
Bottom line to me is that if you say something in offense, it's offensive and shame on you - even if those offended aren't around. But if one tells a joke intended to be harmless, it might be time to turn down the sensitivity a degree or two.
ITEM: I grew up in a background where I became both a bigot and a misogynist. I had to literally drag myself up by the bootstraps to rise above both of those, and I still fight 'em every day. But walking a mile in someone else's shoes has taught me a lot (including when to turn around after half a mile...) And I've found that sometimes, what seems an insulting comment really isn't. As a grown up*, I can control what I say, and adjust it as necessary. Polish jokes aren't very nice; but I can tell it's funny when I substitute "Martian" for "Pole" and it's still fun. "In the Earth vs Mars war, the Martians would throw grenades at the Earth forces. The Earthmen would pick them up, pull the pins, and throw them back."
*I pass for a grown up in most society.
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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7622
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Posted: 01 February 2021 at 9:25am | IP Logged | 6
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Humour is often based on stereotypes. & that can be a very difficult this to decide where the line is in a stereotype.
My job (used to) require me to travel. A lot. I met a lot of different people & managed to experience a lot of different cultures. What we really do need to acknowledge is that while we are all different as individuals, there are cultural aspects that we do get familiar with.
Now we should be able to have a laugh about these things, but not in a vindictive or cruel manner. That’s the line that we shouldn’t cross. It’s the difference between observational humour & belittling humour.
Bernard Manning, in the UK, was an example of the latter for example
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14812
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Posted: 01 February 2021 at 10:08am | IP Logged | 7
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Going after someone for a joke or a pun or a phrase that obviously in no way was intended to insult anyone is just wrong.
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Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with this thread? What's with the ridiculous gaslighting? No one was going after anyone. Pointing out that a cringey as fuck dad joke comes with white privilege IS pointing out that the jokester probably did not intend to say what he said. Once again, no one is claiming to be offended or asking Eric to apologize. His joke was blind to the experience of POC's nonstandard names being ridiculed. If he can say, "Hey, I didn't know. Thanks," and move on, or he can carry on. Up to him.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14812
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Posted: 01 February 2021 at 10:21am | IP Logged | 8
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QUOTE:
ITEM: NO ONE loves jewish jokes more than Jews. I promise you. |
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The same jokes about stereotypes within a group take on a different note when told outside the group. My Jewish friends can make self-deprecating jokes about their community, and it can be funny. Because the people making them understand that those are stereotypes. Those same jokes told by non-Jewish people become more problematic. Are they making fun of the stereotypes, or are they being anti-semitic? I don't know.
QUOTE:
ITEM: There's insult and unintentional insult. |
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Insult is still insult. If it was unintentional, then the response should be education and learning. Not telling people to get over it.
QUOTE:
But if one tells a joke intended to be harmless, it might be time to turn down the sensitivity a degree or two. |
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Lack of intent doesn't remove harm.
Edited by Michael Roberts on 01 February 2021 at 10:22am
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14812
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Posted: 01 February 2021 at 10:35am | IP Logged | 9
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It's really weird that people who feel the need to tell others to "turn down the sensitivity" are being super-sensitive about the phrase "white privilege".
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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7622
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Posted: 01 February 2021 at 11:20am | IP Logged | 10
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If people get offended by white privilege jokes, I would suggest that this at least gives them a modicum, but only a modicum, of what others have been experiencing for centuries. Learn from it & understand the damage those jokes have done over the years.
Except white privilege jokes will never equal the hate & bile contained in racist jokes.
Similarly sexist jokes. Sexist actions. While the phrase sticks & stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me has its place, we need to acknowledge that behind those words are thoughts & deeds. & those can illicit real fear in people to the point that they know they will have to run a gauntlet & thus have to gird themselves before running that gauntlet.
That’s not how the world should be. & it shouldn’t be dismissed either. If I make anyone feel they have to gird themselves before interacting with me, then I need to change who I am, not ask the other person to change.
And that is part of modern cultures issue - people saying that others have to accept & make way for them. No, be sensitive to others & the effect you have on them. And adjust to that as needed
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 01 February 2021 at 11:20am | IP Logged | 11
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Hey, I didn't know. Thanks.
Michael R.: "It's really weird that people who feel the need to tell others to 'turn down the sensitivity' are being super-sensitive about the phrase 'white privilege'."
??? I am not sensitive about white privilege. I have reflected MANY times that I'm in a great spot and I'm a white male. (If I weren't a Jew, I could be a conservative! :) I assure you sir, I am NOT super sensitive.
WARNING: HERE COMES ANOTHER DAD JOKE: And I prefer beef barley.
Edited by Eric Sofer on 01 February 2021 at 11:24am
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14812
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Posted: 01 February 2021 at 12:05pm | IP Logged | 12
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If I weren't a Jew, I could be a conservative! :)
——
That doesn’t preclude you! Such are the vagaries of current tribalism where I’ve been in conversations where a Jewish Trump supporter will be defending an alt-Right Trump supporter while dancing around the latter’s explicit anti-Semitism. “Well he’s right about the liberal elites... except for that Jewish part.”
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