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Topic: Should Marvel have a good, old-fashioned culling? Post Reply | Post New Topic
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John Popa
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Joined: 20 March 2008
Posts: 4376
Posted: 08 April 2024 at 5:28pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I often joke - and it's true - that my first DC comic was "Crisis" #6. So it was in the middle of A LOT, a ton of characters, multiple Earths, multiple Supermen even. But I got the gist of it and was more intrigued by all the characters than turned away by them. Was it cool enough that George Perez was drawing them? Was I, at that point having read Marvel books for a year or so, just sort of attuned to wanting to know about more super heroes? Possibly. But all those characters didn't freak me out or turn me away, at all. 

(It's also possible that Marv Wolfman's style with a lot of captions and exposition made it easier to follow than today's book that are much more sparse. Or, again, maybe I just already liked super heroes!)


Edited by John Popa on 08 April 2024 at 6:38pm
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Rebecca Jansen
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Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
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Posted: 08 April 2024 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I felt Spider-Man and members of The Fantastic Four being Avengers sort of broke the charm to it, and that was around 1988-89? I was fine with any of them or Daredevil chipping in as needed but not the need for them to be card-carrying members, even briefly.

I found Earth-1 etc. fairly fascinating in the DCs, I would have kept them more segregated... Earth-F for the Fawcett characters, Earth-Q for Quality, Earth-C could've been for Charlton... Earth-I for Impact/Archie?
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Craig Earl
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Joined: 13 July 2019
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Posted: 08 April 2024 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

My first Marvel comic was a UK B&W reprint of ASM 98: Gil Kane artwork and the Green Goblin too!

It was great.

Going forward, I acquired the odd Spider-Man comic here and there, each adding tidbits of knowledge about the character, which I devoured.  

Eventually, Marvel UK introduced a B&W Spider-Man pocket book, which reprinted Amazing Fantasy 15 (and the subsequent ASM issues) filling in the blanks for me.

Far from being put off by the character's extensive back story - I could not get enough!
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Craig Earl
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Posted: 08 April 2024 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I felt Spider-Man and members of The Fantastic Four being Avengers sort of broke the charm to it

------------

I agree. Some characters (Spider-Man, DD, Moon Knight, Ghost Rider) just did not belong on a team book in the first place.



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Robert Bradley
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Joined: 20 September 2006
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Posted: 08 April 2024 at 10:37pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

To me, the Avengers were always a mixture from the core group (Thor, Captain America, Iron Man, Henry Pym, the Wasp, Hawkeye, the Vision and the Scrlet Witch) with either some part-time members (such as Black Panther, Wonder Man, the Beast, etc.) on occassion with a new member now and then to spice things up.

Without that core group it becomes what the Defenders, Guardians of the Galaxy and Champions have become - groups thrown together using another group's name.

Making Spider-Man, Brother Voodoo, Blade, Doctor Strange, Luke Cage, Moon Knight, the X-Men, the Fantastic Four or Shang-Chi members takes them away from their own niche in the Marvel Universe and homogenizes all the heroes together.  There used to be some uniqueness with street level characters, mystical characters, the mutant community, etc. but no more!



Edited by Robert Bradley on 09 April 2024 at 4:15am
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Dave Phelps
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posted: 08 April 2024 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

 JB wrote:
If the X-Men are living on Mars(?!?) then that’s the status quo to which new readers are introduced. They don’t have to do homework.

I do think a lot of people tend to say "new reader" when they really mean "lapsed reader."    

But I also think a lot of comics these days are not really "new reader friendly" in that they don't seem to cover the basics - characters aren't named, motivations are vague, etc.  
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John Wickett
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Joined: 12 July 2016
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Posted: 09 April 2024 at 3:53am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

"There used to be some uniqueness with street level characters, mystical characters, the mutant community, etc. but no more!"

Agreed, but if anything, I think having them join the Avengers impacts the uniqueness of those characters individually, rather than hurting the Avengers franchise.  Having Spider-Man as an Avenger doesn't make the team or the book objectively worse.

As far as the Avengers being an exclusive club of Marvel's greatest or most powerful heroes is concerned, that hasn't been true since Avengers #16 in 1965.  

As Robert mentioned, there's always been a mix of Earth's Mightiest Heroes, along with others who had much less impressive powers or resumes when they first joined the team.  Many members were new characters or c-listers who rose to greatness because of their time in the Avengers- not as a pre-requisite.  

For your consideration, here are the "classic" Avengers who joined after Cap during the first 200 issues:
  • Hawkeye- C-list non-powered former Iron Man villain.
  • Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver- new characters who appeared as villains in 3-4 issues of X-Men about a year before joining the Avengers.  In early appearances Wanda was much less powerful than she is depicted now.
  • Hercules- checks the box as one of Marvel's most powerful heroes at that time, but he had only ever appeared as a guest star in other titles before joining the Avengers.  Definitely not an A-lister back then.
  • Black Panther- now one of Marvel's most prominent heroes, but back then just an occasional guest star in Fantastic Four.
  • Black Widow- brand new, non-powered heroine.
  • Vision- another powerhouse, but a brand new character.
  • Black Knight- non powered C-lister.
  • Swordsman- non powered C-lister
  • Mantis- non powered C-lister
  • Beast- a cast off from the era of X-Men that happened before they became popular.  
  • Moondragon- Arguably a powerhouse, but definitely a C-lister.
  • Hellcat- a teen romance character that Marvel decided to try as a superhero.  Joined the Avengers for a few issues, but became better known as a Defender.  Another C-lister.
  • Wonderman- a powerhouse, but a brand new character.
  • Jocasta- C-list robotic character who never did much, even as an Avenger.
  • Falcon- has grown in prominence in more recent years.  Prior to joining the Avengers he was Captain America's occasional sidekick.  
  • Ms. Marvel- checks all the boxes.  Powerful, and the first new Avenger since Captain America to have had her own solo title before joining the Avengers.
Don't get me wrong, I love most of these characters, but in their first 16 years, the Avengers had 23 members, the majority of which had not achieved elite status when they joined the team.


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James Woodcock
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Posted: 09 April 2024 at 5:21am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Responding to both JB & Dave Phelps re new/lapsed readers.
When I tried the X-Men again, JB is right - I was trying to work out how they
got from A to B.
Do I think if I had just accepted B I would have understood things better?
I’m not sure.

I read a month’s worth of the comics, which is a lot if issues for the X-Men
line, & @ the end, I didn’t feel I could name a lot if the characters,
understand their power sets, understand their relationships.
The cast was massive & poorly introduced.

Now, I will admit this was not the first time I felt like this. The one that
comes to mind when I first felt like this was the LSH after their five year
step forward. That really was hard work to keep on top off, & eventually I
gave up there as well.
It really made me realise how important costumes are to super heroes in the
shorthand ‘who is this’ of comics. & by costumes, I mean well defined,
consistent costumes.
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Eric Jansen
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Joined: 27 October 2013
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Posted: 09 April 2024 at 8:35am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

The problem with such largescale "culling" is that usually the people who do the culling aren't the best ones to do it!

If a long-time writer/artist team on SPIDER-MAN had a brilliant idea for an epic that required the culling of 10 or 20 of the worst Spidey villains from his 60-year history, sure go ahead!

That last JAMES BOND movie basically killed off everybody--just because it was the last Daniel Craig Bond.  Halfway through the movie, I though "Oh jeez--it's one of THESE!"

CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS was mentioned above, the most famous and important "culling" in comics history!  They killed Barry Allen, Supergirl, the Crime Syndicate, Kamandi (erased from existence in favor of Tommy Tomorrow--who was never again used in any impactful way), and actually the Huntress.  And then--they all came back!  In confusing ways.  That's the other flaw with a culling--they lead to rampant resurrections.

I agree with JB about bad characters--just stop using them!  And then who knows?  Some good writer and artist might just find some way to use that "loser" and make him a star!  (Englehart and Rogers and Hugo Strange and Deadshot anyone?)


Edited by Eric Jansen on 09 April 2024 at 8:37am
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Vinny Valenti
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Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
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Posted: 09 April 2024 at 12:49pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Every now and then I also get the urge to check in on the X-Men, but then I see that they have mutated(ha) more and more from the status quo that I remember, with more and more useless new characters that I would have to research in order to get the gumption to even care about them. Lately they've apparently self-segregated from the rest of the world to live on an island that tried to kill them - and somehow nobody asks how that's not a violation of Xavier's entire purpose of the X-Men??
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Peter Martin
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Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15805
Posted: 09 April 2024 at 1:18pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I think there's no question that JB is right. Given the vast number of characters we are talking about, the most practicable solution is simply to stop using the characters you don't want, rather than crafting an ending for each of them, which also is like pointing a spotlight on the character you want to forget about.
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Brian Rhodes
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Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3308
Posted: 09 April 2024 at 3:25pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I feel this is where the MCU has arrived at.  The fans who lined up to see Iron Man and Captain America are far less interested in Echo or Ms Marvel.

Guilty. I don't care so much about Shang-Chi, Ms. Marvel, or even, really, the Falcon and/or The Winter Soldier as featured characters. 

I was much more excited to see Power Man and Iron Fist team-up in the Netflix Defenders series, by contrast. And I quite liked the She-Hulk show.

I can understand indifference toward some characters, as there are so many - even in live action - now. What I don't get is the hatred that's been spewed toward a few. 
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