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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134090
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| Posted: 25 August 2010 at 12:52pm | IP Logged | 1
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…having Lex Luthor use his wealth and influence against the Man of Steel proved to be much more entertaining than sending him into battle wearing armor.•• I was no fan of the armored Luthor. "My" Luthor will ever and always be the guy in prison greys, or, occasionally, a black business suit. The idea of Luthor going head to head with Superman seemed completely out of character. Luthor may be crazy -- but he's not stupid!!
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Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12735
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| Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:10pm | IP Logged | 2
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Luthor as a businessman was a true counterpart to Superman. As a super-villain he was just boringly opposite.
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Anthony Warlow
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 July 2010
Posts: 312
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| Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:24pm | IP Logged | 3
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I liked the attention that was given to Clark Kent being a pretty big muscular guy. Even if he changed his personality, CK is still a big guy and people would notice that. So JBs scene of Lois using Clark's weights is just awesome.
Come to think of it -- I like JB's Clark Kent a lot more than CK in any other version of Superman I had read to-date (and possibly since). I think the notion that CK was the person and that Superman was the costume he wore -- that view point appealed to me as a reader. I would have liked to have seen CK dating other women though. The whole Clark / Lois and only Lois thing never worked for me, so I was a fan of Cat Grant.
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Matthew McCallum
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2710
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| Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:28pm | IP Logged | 4
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Luthor as a businessman was a true counterpart to Superman.
Particularly in the era of Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous where we were obsessed with the super-models and the super-rich. Thus, a super-genius with seemingly infinite resources and a desire to corrupt all this is good is a proper challenge for Superman. (And, for that matter, an incorruptible Superman a proper challenge for Luthor.)
I don't recall if it is was every overtly stated, but I always got the vibe during the Byrne years that Luthor was the anti-thesis of what we think of as Truth, Justice and the American Way. In Luthor's world of unrestrained corporate greed, his "American Way" had no room for Truth or Justice.
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Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12735
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| Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:33pm | IP Logged | 5
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Lies, Injustice, and the Majority-Shareholder's Way.
Kinda like Fox News.
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Matthew McCallum
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2710
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| Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:34pm | IP Logged | 6
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No, they're against the mosque, remember? *grin*
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Flavio Sapha
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 12912
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| Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:57pm | IP Logged | 7
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Flavio, can you clarify what you mean by "hidden years"?
++++MOS (I mean the six issue mini) offered snapshots of the beginnings of Superman´s career. When, say, the Metal Men showed up at Action Comics, Superman already knew them, because he´d had several years of adventures we weren´t privy to. That´s what I called "hidden years". It´s always fun to see the heroes learning the ropes. This is probably one of the fundamental factors of the success of the NEW X-MEN and the TEEN TITANS (I mean the ones we had in the 70/80s). They gave the readers the sense that they got in on the ground floor. JB´s DOOM PATROL, unfortunately, gave me the opposite feeling. When it was shown that DP had a lot of cool villains locked in detention, it made me go "hey, I wanna read the stories about taking these guys down...where are they?". But, then, I am very fond of "simple formula" super-hero stories. My ideal Alpha Flight would´ve been a team that got summoned by DEPARTMENT H, met in a high-tech hq and fought off the monster or bad guy of the month...
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4655
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| Posted: 25 August 2010 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | 8
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Wallace Sellars wrote:
| My favorite Clark Kent (George Reeves' Adventures of Superman version) wasn't especially meek or mild-mannered |
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Stephen Robinson wrote:
| I sometimes think that people who believe JB drastically changed Clark Kent are comparing JB's Clark to Christopher Reeve's Clark, which was far more over the top (perhaps appropriately so to convey the difference in live action). |
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I disagree. The Chris Reeve version of Clark was very consistent with the way he had been portrayed in the comics for some 35 years at least. In the comics "meek and mild mannered" meant cowardly and timid. That's how Clark was depicted. He disappeared when there was trouble. Sometimes he even hid in a closet or under a desk. He advised caution. He was afraid to stand up to people. He was also physically clumsy.
The George Reeves version was the one that was not faithful to the source material. I read somewhere that Reeves did not want to portray Clark as a timid weakling and asked for the change. I don't know if that's true, but to my mind it's a case of Hollywood changing the source material, same as organic web shooters or the X-Men wearing black leather instead of uniforms.
The meek mild Clark characterization was part of Clark's persona almost from the very beginning. I don't have a copy right now, but I remember that there are stories in Superman Chronicles Volume 1 where he is portrayed that way, so it started sometime in the first year. Certainly it was pretty well set in stone by the mid-40s. To me it's an essential part of the Clark Kent character. We can disagree about whether it's realistic or effective to have him act that way, but eliminating it was making a fundamental change in the character, one that I still do not like.
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 25 August 2010 at 6:37pm
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5833
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| Posted: 25 August 2010 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | 9
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There's a malevolence to the "business suit Luthor" that I just don't get when he dons a supersuit and takes on Superman head-to-head.
***************
SER: I like how the Bruce Timm Luthor was handled: Businessman in SUPERMAN. He is eventually taken down in JUSTICE LEAGUE but even then, he doesn't resort to the warsuit until it's necessary to preserve his life and he's desperate (he thinks he's dying and wants to take out the Justice League). After that, he still works in the shadows, controlling others, even when he's part of the Legion of Doom.
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Paul Simpson Simpson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 April 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 939
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| Posted: 25 August 2010 at 6:31pm | IP Logged | 10
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Particularly in the era of Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous where we were obsessed with the super-models and the super-rich. What do you mean were? That cultural trait is still alive and well in the new century.
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4655
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| Posted: 25 August 2010 at 6:35pm | IP Logged | 11
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Matt Reed wrote:
| I loved seeing Luthor work from the sidelines like a puppet master asopposed to being out front fighting Superman in his "War Suit". |
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I'm not a fan of Luthor in his battle armor either. That was I think a misguided attempt to "Marvelize" Luthor by making him into someone Superman could physically fight, which was silly.
The definitive Luthor for me is a scheming mastermind genius with an obsessional hatred of Superman. My all-time favorite Luthor story is Jerry Siegel's "The Death of Superman" in which Luthor pretends to reform, and even goes to the trouble of finding a cure for cancer, solely to get Superman to trust him long enough to let down his guard. Luthor then proceeds to kill Superman in front of his loved ones. That is Luthor to me. You don't get any more malevolent than that.
The pre-crisis Luthor was motivated by hatred of Superman, as well as greed and a desire for glory. The new Luthor has those motivations too, but he also has a lust for power and control that is new. The old Luthor didn't want to take over the world, and would never have bothered to mess with an innocent waitress if it didn't serve some greater scheme. The new Luthor gets off on messing with people and controlling them. I don't mind that so much, but he just doesn't feel like the same character to me, and I miss the old guy.
Beyond that, the main problem I have with evil businessman Luthor (as we've discussed here before) is that I really dislike the concept that he is never brought to justice. That to me makes Superman look impotent, and it seems far too cynical a worldview for Superman comics. Superman shouldn't just prevent crime, he should bring criminals to justice. To see him repeatedly fail at catching Luthor, despite his great powers, is discouraging.
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 25 August 2010 at 6:35pm
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Paul Simpson Simpson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 April 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 939
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| Posted: 25 August 2010 at 6:40pm | IP Logged | 12
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The meek mild Clark characterization was part of Clark's persona almost from the very beginning. I remember reading one old reprint were Lois openly insulted Clark's manhood. She said something along the lines of"wish there was a real man around." As a kid the Clark as a wussy characterazation always turned me off. That is the main reason I did not read Superman. That is until I gave it a try when Mr.Byrne took over. I liked Mr.Byrne's Clark.
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