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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 26 August 2010 at 6:59am | IP Logged | 1  

the main problem I have with evil businessman Luthor (as we'vediscussed here before) is that I really dislike the concept that he isnever brought to justice.  That to me makes Superman look impotent, andit seems far too cynical a worldview for Superman comics.  Supermanshouldn't just prevent crime, he should bring criminals to justice.  Tosee him repeatedly fail at catching Luthor, despite his great powers,is discouraging.

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SER: I viewed the JB Luthor as basically the Devil -- especially after reading METROPOLIS 900 MILES. You can't kill the Devil or throw him in jail but you defeat him by resisting him. Luthor originally attempts to control Superman and Superman resists, thus setting an example for other people in Metropolis to resist. "I'm the most powerful man in Metroplis!" "Not anymore, Lex."

I never viewed Superman as impotent against Luthor. He defeats his machinations every time. Luthor might not be thrown in prison at the end of the story but that didn't happen with every pre-Crisis Luthor story ever -- often he would escape.


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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 26 August 2010 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | 2  

Pre-crisis Luthor occasionally escaped justice for an issue or two, but the vast majority of the time he was caught and sent to jail.  There's a huge difference between occasionally getting away and always getting away.  Evil businessman Luthor commits profoundly evil acts, yet he is never  brought to justice and never suffers any consequences for his actions (other than frustration over having his plans not work out).  As I said before, I see Superman's role as both stopping crime and bringing criminals to justice; in the case of Luthor he is consistently failing at the latter task.  To have a guy who commits profound evil and never gets punished may be realistic in the real world, but to me it shouldn't happen in Superman's world.
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 26 August 2010 at 6:33pm | IP Logged | 3  

But Jason, Luthor is a different TYPE of criminal post-Crisis.  He's of the type that really doesn't lend itself to being caught by Superman. Batman, maybe.
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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 26 August 2010 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | 4  

I'm one of those who started liking Superman after JB started writing him (although my affection for the Pre-Byrne version has grown since then).  One of the big things I liked was getting rid of "mild mannered" Clark Kent.  Tradition or no, it just bugged me that he pretended to be like that as opposed to, say, Peter Parker whose occasional awkward moments were sincere, even with the superhero alter ego.  Plus I never understood the whole "triangle" thing, and how Lois is wrong for not falling for what amounted to a fake personality.

Also prefer JB and Wolfman's Luthor, although in hindsight I wish they had opted to just introduce a new character as arch foe, so we could have had both available.

Still in all, I'm glad JB didn't know then what he knows now. :-)

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Pete Carrubba
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Posted: 26 August 2010 at 9:08pm | IP Logged | 5  

Love JB's Superman. The trade paperback collections are great, and JB getting to handle the New Gods, a Kirby creation, is so very fitting.

My only wish would be that JB's run would have been contained only in the issues that he wrote and drew. Not that the art in The Adventures of Superman wasn't up to par, I just prefer to be transported to the JB-verse without distraction. Not too many trade collections of his work are like that. The first volume of Man of Steel is all JB, but even in Fantastic Four Visionaries, the occasional crossover into Secret Wars II and other non-JB titles is more of a distraction than an asset to the story.

Granted, at the time of publication, DC and Marvel weren't thinking in terms of collected volumes telling a cohesive, single story or featuring one writer/artist. But it would be nicer to me if JB were able to work unhindered by crossovers and other "events" that in hindsight are actually a major annoyance.
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James Revilla
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Posted: 26 August 2010 at 9:57pm | IP Logged | 6  

That speech Luthor gives him in his office when he has the ring is still THE definitive Luthor speech ever to me. I will never think of that character and not "hear" those words in my mind so thank you for that JB.
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 26 August 2010 at 10:37pm | IP Logged | 7  

 Brian Miller wrote:
But Jason, Luthor is a different TYPE of criminal post-Crisis.  He's of the type that really doesn't lend itself to being caught by Superman.Batman, maybe.

Then he should ask Batman for help, I guess.  Knowing what he knows about Luthor, he shouldn't rest until he is brought to justice. 

 Dave Phelps wrote:
Plus I never understood the whole "triangle" thing, and how Lois is wrong for not falling for what amounted to a fake personality.

The gist of the triangle is that Superman doesn't want Lois to love him just because he's Superman and has great powers, he wants her to love him because of who he really is.  It's a variation on the old fable of the rich guy pretending to be poor to find true love.  You're correct in pointing out the huge flaw in Superman's logic, that Clark isn't "who he really is" but largely a fake personality. 

I guess one could argue that Superman uses Lois's reaction to Clark as an indicator that she is fairly shallow and thus unworthy, since she is unable to recognize or appreciate Clark's good traits and is fairly cruel towards his romantic overtures.  And Clark isn't entirely a fake personality.  The timidity and cowardliness are, but the rest of Clark is genuine.  Clark's sentimentality, his occasional insecurity, his selflessness, his small-town values... those are entirely real.

At any rate, these stories were written for pre-adolescents, so the old Lois/Clark emotional dynamic isn't something that can hold up against this kind of scrutiny.

 Pete Carubba wrote:
My only wish would be that JB's run would have been contained only in the issues that he wrote and drew.

I agree with this.  Despite my dislike of all the continuity changes, I can still recognize "my" Superman in JB's stories.  The character rings true and feels totally right.  I can't say the same about the Wolfman stories from the same period.


Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 27 August 2010 at 1:25am
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 27 August 2010 at 1:12am | IP Logged | 8  

nevermind-- I just got the context of the conversation here.

It's weird to me that the only identity "Kal-El" ever knew, given him by the
only parents he ever knew, became "fake"-- but that is largely how Clark
Kent was played in the pre-MOS Superman.

Seems like a Scarlet Pimpernel or Zorro bit that got adopted before things
were really thought through.

Edited by Mark Haslett on 27 August 2010 at 1:18am

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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 27 August 2010 at 3:17am | IP Logged | 9  

"I guess one could argue that Superman uses Lois's reaction to Clark as an indicator that she is fairly shallow and thus unworthy, since she is unable to recognize or appreciate Clark's good traits and is fairly cruel towards his romantic overtures.  And Clark isn't entirely a fake personality.  The timidity and cowardliness are, but the rest of Clark is genuine.  Clark's sentimentality, his occasional insecurity, his selflessness, his small-town values... those are entirely real."

Except that's not really the case, particularly once Schwartz took over.  Lois was frequently attracted to Clark (most notably in a story in Superman #296-299), but frustrated by his inability to stand up for himself, his tendency to run at the first sight of trouble, etc. 

Before that, she was pretty sure Clark was Superman, despite all of the crazy, and sometimes cruel, stuff Superman did to convince her he wasn't.  (Which throws a huge monkeywrench into that whole "Lois was so blinded by Superman's glamour that she couldn't see what she wanted was right in front her (in the form of Clark)" nonsense.)

"At any rate, these stories were written for pre-adolescents, so the old Lois/Clark emotional dynamic isn't something that can hold up against this kind of scrutiny."

I suppose, but it's the adults who tend to feel that "the triangle" is a precious jewel that must be preserved at all costs, so... :-)

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