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Shawn Kane
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Joined: 04 November 2010
Location: United States
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Posted: 08 December 2012 at 7:31am | IP Logged | 1  

Maybe Superman isn't a character that we can relate to but he's the character that we should WANT to be. Writers who can't relate to him tend to make him smug or a parody of what he represents. It's like trying to take the starch out of the "popular kids", if you're not one of them why not just make fun of them?
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Robbie Parry
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Joined: 17 June 2007
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Posted: 08 December 2012 at 7:53am | IP Logged | 2  

I've never liked the way "Boy Scout" is used as a pejorative. I think it says more about the people making the comment than about Superman himself.
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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 137143
Posted: 08 December 2012 at 8:16am | IP Logged | 3  

I've never liked the way "Boy Scout" is used as a pejorative. I think it says more about the people making the comment than about Superman himself.

••

As I recall, I had Lex Luthor -- the VILLAIN -- refer to Superman as a "boy scout". Of course, the "bad boys" of fandom love to pick up phrases like that. Serves so well their ennui affection.

Ultimately, tho, this comes back to the old point that, as Neal Adams so aptly phrased it, decades ago, there are no bad characters, only bad writers. If Superman is "boring", it's because he's being written that way.

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 08 December 2012 at 9:31am | IP Logged | 4  

I don't mind a villain using "Boy Scout" as a pejorative as it makes sense that an evil guy like Luthor would use such a term, being a wicked individual himself. Same reason I don't mind The Joker using the names "Supes" or "Bats".

With readers, I don't like it. Having a fanboy refer to Superman as a "Boy Scout" in a pejorative way can, in most instances translate to, "How much better I am than these silly American comic books."

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David Ferguson
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Joined: 17 March 2007
Location: Ireland
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Posted: 08 December 2012 at 11:44am | IP Logged | 5  

Superman's response to the boy scout comment by Luthor is "You say that like it's a bad thing"
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Joined: 02 July 2009
Location: Norway
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Posted: 08 December 2012 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | 6  

Superman boring? Absolutely not. But I've seen writers give it their best in making him boring. Whether they're having him walk around America in 12 issues, or expanding his powers beyond limit.


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Thomas Moudry
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
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Posted: 08 December 2012 at 1:05pm | IP Logged | 7  

Superman is not boring, but I've read some boring Superman stories, mostly
because the writers didn't seem to know what to do with him. Perhaps they
couldn't ascertain appropriate threats or perhaps they simply couldn't fathom
a good person doing what he does for the right reasons--either way, they
obviously missed the point of the character.

Often, DC Comics doesn't seem to know what to do with Superman. He's the
best toy in the box, and they rarely put him in the hands of someone
capable.
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John Byrne

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Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 08 December 2012 at 1:39pm | IP Logged | 8  

Often, DC Comics doesn't seem to know what to do with Superman. He's the best toy in the box, and they rarely put him in the hands of someone capable.

••

Superman is trapped between a "generation" of writers who cannot conceive of anyone doing the right thing for the right reasons, and several "generations" of ennui engorged "fans" who don't want to read about anyone doing the right thing for the right reasons. In both cases, someone who is BETTER than they are.

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Thomas Moudry
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5060
Posted: 08 December 2012 at 2:24pm | IP Logged | 9  

Once my students find out their teacher is a comic book fan--not a difficult
puzzle to crack since there's a huge, hand-painted mural featuring
Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman on my classroom wall, they
inevitably ask, "Who's your favorite super-hero, Mr. Moudry?" My answer is
always the same: "Superman." Often, their reactions reflect their incredulity.
"Really?!? Why?!?" It's as though they cannot even conceive of someone liking
the Man of Steel. Often, I say something like, "Well, he was the first comic
book super-hero, and he represents the best we can aspire to as human
beings: he's selfless because it's the right thing to do--whether you have
super-powers or not." Then, we move on.
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Robbie Parry
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Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12185
Posted: 08 December 2012 at 2:26pm | IP Logged | 10  

Superman is trapped between a "generation" of writers who cannot conceive of anyone doing the right thing for the right reasons, and several "generations" of ennui engorged "fans" who don't want to read about anyone doing the right thing for the right reasons. In both cases, someone who is BETTER than they are.

***

In that case, I'm glad those people weren't writing the books in the 60s or working on Disney films!
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Chad Carter
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Joined: 16 June 2005
Posts: 9584
Posted: 08 December 2012 at 3:48pm | IP Logged | 11  


The best Superman stories I've read were in the SHOWCASE PRESENTS DC PRESENTS Superman team-ups. Not only for the Jose Garcia-Lopez art, among others, but how well Superman works in that team-up scenario. And for the ultimate example, seek Garcia-Lopez's SUPERMAN VS WONDER WOMAN, which is incredible to look at. 

For my money, the art of Superman comics prior to the mid-1980s, and then Frank Miller's "dumbing down" of the character, twice in two Dark Knight series, created some kind of atrophy about Superman. And in terms of Miller, an excuse to use Superman as a symbol of Government oppression and misguided morality. A wrong-headed interpretation which seemed to embed in an entire generation's mind.

If Superman is "boring," I can only ascribe it to the pre-CRISIS Swan era of art. I really respect people who love Swan, and I've read great Swan stories, but Swan wasn't the kind of dynamic artist Marvel was pumping out, nor Perez or Adams or Byrne. If any character had ever needed a dynamic artist, it was Superman. Jack Kirby should have been the only Superman artist needed on Superman in the 1970s. George Perez and Marv Wolfman should have been on Superman comics all through the 1980s, instead of creating a forgettable Teen Titans book (and sure, I loved NEW TEEN TITANS too, back when, but was it really essential?) Wolfman, Perez, Superman and the Justice League of America. Should have happened. 

Then CRISIS came along to show off the Superman of Earth-2 ie "Golden Age" Superman as its star. In short order, E-2 Superman was given more poignancy than E-1 Superman, despite the death of Kara-El. This reinforced the idea Kal-El wasn't very interesting, even on the grandest of stages, even though the two Supermen were the same character. The difference was, E-2 Superman had more emotional resonance, something E-1 Superman had lost. And maybe the whole of the DCU before CRISIS.

John Byrne's Superman only partially solved the problem, as I see it. JB never really unleashed on his Superman books. They were good, workmanlike, and maybe by the "Superman: Executioner!" story, JB was reaching his first real plateau. But he was gone after that, and Roger Stern came in to do bang-up stories with all kinds of excitement and great art by guys like Tom Grummett, Bob McGleod, and the like. 

Really, the late-1980s Superman was anything but "boring," but what was really great about that time was ignored in favor of "The Death of Superman." Suddenly everybody and their mother was trying to make Superman more relevant, more "hip." New costumes, new supporting characters, new mullets--nothing worked.

As we speak of Superman now, he's the epitome of corporate interference and creative malfeasance. I'm not surprised creative minds have lost ways to make Superman relevant, since Superman's irreverence has always been at the core of the most important Superman stories. Whether the Kal-El of the '50s-'80s, or the Clark Kent of the mid-late '80s, most of the good Superman stories perceived Kal-El/Clark as removed from modernity. That Superman hails from an advanced civilization, while also being a symbol of 1950s Americana, is why the character was so unique: Superman is emblematic of a fantastic future AND a noble-flawed past.

And even if you don't buy that, getting back to my DC PRESENTS point, Superman is still at his best as a foil for other characters, to make them better or even interesting just in contrast/comparison. As the greatest superhero, Superman will always be the watershed, which is always poignant.
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Thom Price
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L’Homme Diabolique

Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7592
Posted: 08 December 2012 at 4:00pm | IP Logged | 12  

I admit that I often find Superman boring.  Not because of his personality, but because of his power levels.  A character who can lift mountain ranges or travel to the furthest end of the galaxy in the blink of an eye has no appeal to me.  I've liked Superman best when his power levels were considerably decreased: JB's run, or the Bruce Timm cartoons. 

I often feel hopelessly old fashioned, but I like the straight up heroic and noble characters: Superman, Wonder Woman, Captain America, Cyclops.  I'll take them over an 'anti-hero' any day of the week.
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